Talk About Red Dots on Handguns

[P-990]

Just as the title says, please talk to me about red dots on handguns. Back in the fall I became intrigued by the idea of putting an RMR on top of a Glock after reading an article in American Rifleman. With Glock releasing an MOS version of the 19 and 17 models, I find the idea harder to resist.

I ask because I added a red dot sight to my AR carbine relatively recently and was surprised at the shootability upgrade it brought to that rifle. Place glowing red dot on target, press trigger, repeat until empty. It's much more reliable than picking out the front sight, at least for my eyes on a short sight radius carbine like an AR.

Do the advantages of the red dot translate over to the handgun world? From what I've been reading the only consensus seems to be running the dot can be slower inside 5-7 yards, but as range increases so does the advantage of an RDS over conventional iron sights. I'm interested to hear from those who have tried it how it worked out. And whether you decided to stay with the RDS or go back to irons.

(This is also to help my decide what to add to the stable next. I'm torn between the new Colt LW Commander in 9mm, a Glock 42, a 19 MOS or a Cannondale fat bike.)

 

[Ozzieman]

I’m interested in others comments as well. I have 3 pistol carbines with red dots on them with no magnification. I also feel that they work very well with my shooting ability. The other main advantage that I see is since my eyes are getter worse (called OLD FART Disease) I have a very hard time focusing on multiple distances. Rear/front/target. The red dot seems to make that a non issue for the carbines.
I have a Glock 34 and I wish I had waited a couple of years to get the MOS now that they offer it. I don’t want to trade it because of all the money and time I have in it now. But I’m saving to send the slide to Wolf barrel to have the slide modified for a red dot. Just haven’t picked the one I want to use but the Trijjicon is looking best.

 

[testuser79]

I've been intrigued by the concept, too. I decided to try it out on a Ruger MK III and came up with some downsides. I think positives are well known, so we won't cover them.

Negatives...

- No way to index. On a rifle your cheek indexes on the stock, this puts your eye in line with the red dot every time. There is no such reference on a pistol, other than the sights you eliminated when you mounted the sight.

That leave me to the second problem and the reason you need back up sights for your red dot.

- Losing the dot. Iron sights are a lot faster on a handgun. I can get better with the red dot if I practice my presentation over and over, but that doesn't have much validity in a self defense situation. People that compete with red dots must really focus on presentation over-and-over again. Again, this concept needs a way to index, it needs front and rear sights.

When I carry a handgun, I have no time to turn a red dot on and off. That means either a red dot powered by Tritium or a 50,000 hour red dot. It needs to be on all the time if I'm going to carry it. Otherwise, I'm better off with night sights.

On a handgun, it's great for hunting or slow fire target shooting. It could easily replace a low power pistol scope on a hunting revolver. For other types of shooting you need to be well practiced in finding the dot and, for me, that means being very exact about how I present the handgun, that's fine for the range, but not ok for self defense.

How to fix the problem?

The market is really letting me down on this one. I don't like the idea of machining every pistol I own for a back up rear sight, just to try a red dot. After my experience with red dots on a pistol, I need sights front and rear so I don't lose the red dot.

It's easy to add a higher front sight and easy to get a mount that dovetails into the rear dovetail to mount a red dot, but NOT trivial to machine a slot for a new rear sight! Manufacturers should build-in or have bolt on rear sight kits for their red dots!

Leupold has this for their Delta point. Awesome! It's just too expensive for me. I'm hoping other manufacturers will follow this logic, then all I'll need to do is install a higher front sight...no machining the slide.

 

[g.willikers]

^^^^
An excellent description of using a dot scope with handguns.
Thanks, testuser.
Too many folks get the wrong idea about them, thanks to all the encouraging advertising.

But, on the other hand, using one will automatically require much better shooting skills in general, just to be able to put the dot on the target without having to fish around for it.

 

[fire4606]

Excellent dscription but not at all accurate in my experience.

I find the red dot faster at all distances, i find it does index inside the frame of the sight, the dot just isnt very visible until it is centered.

Many of the trijicon models are always on, my competition sight is not but thats why its on my comp gun. (vortex razor)

I dont run any irons on my competition gun, and as im growing more confident in the sight im more certain that ill be buying a 19 or 26 and setting it up as an EDC with a dot on it and no irons...

 

[BigJimP]

Well said - I see no way to use them on a carry gun / having to have them switched on all the time is a big downside.

I like them on a pure range gun like a semi auto .22 like a browning buckmark.

Just saw my eye doctor this week / as most guys in their 60's my eyes are not getting better....but it is what it is...and I am relying on better rear sights like battle sight profiles and fibre optic front sights...instead of red dots on my handguns - and I don't see any reason to change in next 5 yrs unless technology really changes...

 

[wogpotter]

With the advent of the mini red dots my big reservation, loss of handiness because of bulk, has faded a bit.
I've had the open reflex type on rifles & liked it, but the sheer bulk of the units on a handgun put me off.

 

[Theohazard]

There is no such reference on a pistol, other than the sights you eliminated when you mounted the sight.
[...]
Again, this concept needs a way to index, it needs front and rear sights.
[...]
The market is really letting me down on this one. I don't like the idea of machining every pistol I own for a back up rear sight, just to try a red dot.
[...]
Manufacturers should build-in or have bolt on rear sight kits for their red dots!

I'm not sure where all this talk about not having a rear sight comes from. Every defensive handgun I know of that's cut for a red dot sight has both front and rear sights. The M&P CORE, the Glock MOS models, the FNX-45 Tactical, they all come with front and rear sights. On some of these you might need to get higher sights if you want to co-witness with the red dot, but that's a much easier thing to do than adding a rear sight from scratch.

 

[rock185]

I have not used a red dot for competition or carry, but have some experience with them. Several years ago a couple friends put red dots, Leupolds IIRC, on their Browning Buck Mark .22 pistols. Once we sighted them in I was amazed. Quick to pick up and allowing impressive accuracy when shooting carefully as compared to iron sights. Later, I mounted an inexpensive red dot on my Ruger 22/45. I sighted it in with CCI Stinger ammo and it became like a little "ray gun" in it's accuracy and ease of hitting a target. Practical for anything in particular, probably not, but lots of plinking and recreational fun. Later I mounted the same sight on my Marlin Camp 9 carbine and then a Ruger 10-22. Same results.

 

[hartcreek]

For a target/range toy in lesser calibers they can be fine BUT not on a magnum. I had on my 624 mounted on a rail on top. The first one lasted 30 shots before the mounts broke the second one lasted 20. I returned my Aimpoint 1000 to the factory the second time and the factory offered me an inexpensive upgrade to their laser which I still have mounted to the gun but I fablicated a bottom of the grip mount.

Soon after the Aimpoint 1000 was recalled. Newer red dots might hold up to the recoil but I have my doubts.

 

[FrankenMauser]

I have a Buckmark Target that ran a red dot several times in its past.

It was tons of fun, very easy to use, and made the gun feel even more accurate than it already was -- no thanks to the huge stock front sight post, I'm sure.

"Losing" the red dot really wasn't an issue. If you're pointing the pistol so far off axis that the dot is gone, and you don't recognize it by feel or the sight of a cockeyed gun, then you have some basic technique to work on a bit more.



Downside:
That pistol was impossible to find a holster for, to begin with.
Add the red dot, and it might as well be a rifle, because the only way to carry it around is to keep it in your hand. There was nothing on the market to work with that pistol and a red dot sight.
-For someone that would only use it as a range toy, that's not a big deal. And for some one that wants to spend $300+ on a custom holster, it wouldn't be a big deal, either. But for the average Joe, the lack of an off-the-shelf holster (even one that could be modified) was a big pain in the butt.

Many pistols fall into the same problem, when you mount a red dot.


Red dot, or not, that Buckmark's lack of holster options was a major headache for a long time.
I have, however, recently partially remedied the holster situation. I tracked down an injection-molded kydex holster intended for Ruger 22/45s with red dot sights, and did some major surgery to it so that it would accept the Buckmark with its full-length Picatinny rail and huge, hooded sights. With just a little more modification (and a reinforcement), the holster would probably work with a red dot.

 

[Hunter Customs]

I have a lot of experience with red-dots on handguns, C-Mores, Tasco can sights, and numerous reflex sights like the Doctor in the picture.

As for speed with a red-dot they are faster then iron sights, that's why the shooters shooting speed event competition with them are using them.

The red-dot should come up in a natural position to the shooters eye if not it would be best to check out the way the dot sight is mounted and positioned.

As for holsters there's several holsters that will work with the Doctor set-up in the picture.

Would I want one on a defense gun? Nope I don't need any gizmos or gadgets on my defense gun.
Good old irons will do for me and the smaller the better.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

 

[waveslayer]

check out www.umtactical.com
a removable and no gunsmith in required red dot mount for a handgun. I use it a lot for fun, hunting etc.. my wife likes it for self defense at home. it even fits their holster and works for almost any gun with a picatinny rail

 

[44 AMP]

This is the only handgun I have with a red dot sight on it. And the only kind I think should have. I realize there are some really small ones now, and some do benefit from them, but I doubt I would.

Being a cheapskate, I have an aversion to spending a lot of money on a pistol scope or sight. The one pictured was $35 when I got it some time ago, and so far has survived (and held zero) for over 100 rounds of .45-70.

This particular one, being a cheapie does tend to fade out in direct bright sunlight. I have used other, more expensive ones that didn't.

Despite the fact that my eyes are failing a bit, I don't have any interest in putting a dot sight on my other handguns for the forseeable future.

I'm just barely getting to the point where I will accept battery operated sights, a personal matter, despite their widespread use and acceptance. If the battery craps out on my Contender, something four footed will walk away unharmed, and so will I.

On a defensive weapon, that might not be the case.

 

[mxsailor803]

I use a couple revolvers with with red dots regularly (629 and 617). Now both of mine I use for hunting. So if I can't get in a position to take a comfortable shot, I won't take it. Now both of mine aren't the newer styles like the RMR and such, just regular tube red dots. I can not stress enough that even with a red dot, you need to practice. Put yourself in different positions to see how it effect the impact. Also, don't forget to try weak hand.

 

[chris in va]

I've sed a 30mm tube type on my CZ Kadet. It works great and ups the fun factor. One caveat, 22 doesn't recoil much so reacquiring the dot is pretty easy compared to say, a 40 S&W. The open style such as the Docter is a bit easier to use.

 

[P-990]

Thanks for the replies. Lots of things to look at and think about in there.

Based on the feedback here I think I may put something like a Fast Fire on top of my 22/45 to test the concept. At under $250, it's a lot cheaper than trying out a Glock MOS and Trijicon RMR. (Though I finally learned my lesson on optics after spending the money on an Aimpoint for my AR.) Since the Ruger doesn't get carried other than in a case to and from the range, lack of holster options won't be an immediate issue. From what I've been reading, it sounds like worst-case scenario, my stash of .22LR might disappear...

 

[FrankenMauser]

I have a Fast Fire III (in the form of the AR-F3) on an AR-15 upper, and I have tested it on 3-4 other uppers.

I like it, and want two more. The 1/2 MoA adjustment is a bit annoying on rifles, but shouldn't be much of an issue on handguns.


I haven't owned mine long enough to give a battery life update (it hasn't died yet), but many owners report 3+ years even with the sight set to "reflex" all of the time (never turned "off").

 

[RickB]

Most dot sights used in "practical" pistol competition, as opposed to bullseye, have been frame-mounted, and not practical for carry.
The United States Practical Shooting Association recently adopted a new equipment division called "Carry Optics", which, rather than revolving around very expensive custom pistols with the frame-mounted dot, is instead all about small, slide-mounted optics on guns like Glocks.
There are a lot of videos on youtube about the guns and sights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhAAqK9NIOo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rQfjD-SMWw

 

[Hunter Customs]

Just what USPSA needs is another division.
Pretty soon everybody that enters a match will be a winner, Bernie would enjoy that.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter