Surplus ball powders in .308

[Cheapo]

The HiTech surplus powders are quite interesting, but my review of "like Ball C-2" and "like --wazzit?? W-W 780" and "like H-335" are a bit confusing, as far as getting decent velocities with 147-gr, 168-gr, and 175-gr bullets in .308.

Anyone have tested chrono info on which, if any, of the surplus powders can give me 2550 to 2650 fps* with the 168, and 2700-2800 fps with the 147-gr?

And IF IF IF any surplus ball powders can safely launch Sierra 175s fast enough?

Curious minds want to know.

*Remember, that military 2550 fps was at something like 78 feet downrange! MZ or instrumental at 10 feet is going to be a _noticeable_ bit higher.

 

[Poodleshooter]

WC846 will easily run a standard Remington 165gr JSP up to somewhat over 2700 in a .308. I would assume that it can also do so with 168gr BTHP
It is also capable of running 150gr bullets higher than your requirements. I won't post data as my data is from my 22" bbled Ruger and won't apply to your weapon for pressure/safety reasons. My data was personally chronoed, not estimated.
If you're looking for a surplus powder to buy for .308 (my assumption from your posted bullet weights) 846 is the one.
One caveat-it is VERY temperature sensitive, just like Winchester 748 and Ball(C)2.
Re: 175 Sierra's....fast enough for what? Staying supersonic out to 1,000?

 

[Cheapo]

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Re: 175 Sierra's....fast enough for what? Staying supersonic out to 1,000?
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Yup. I don't remember what speed(s) provide optimal accuracy with 1-12 and 1-11 twist barrels, but the objective is to be supersonic at 1,000 yards, preferably with enough speed to have less wind drift than the 155-gr Palma bullet.

So...WCC846 and W-W 748 are more temperature sensitive than --what--most or all IMR stick types? How much of a difference are we looking at?

I really like the lower flame temp. and throat life we get with ball-type powders. Can't I have both worlds?

 

[Poodleshooter]

I see a rough difference of 50-100fps over a 30-40degree temperature change when using 846 versus IMR4064 or 4320 where I really don't find any variation outside of my usual ES. I posted awhile back about some really high velocities obtained on a 100degree day, mostly with AA2520 and WC846 loads that were pretty much the same as factory velocity on milder days. Mostly, its the increased pressure signs that you notice when shooting ball powders on a hot day.
Accuracy doesn't suffer, but if you're thinking about highpower shooting other than reduced course, I'd probably stick to Varget,some VV powder-anything but surplus ball powder. It's great inside 300 yds where you don't have to worry about velocity variations, but past that, if the temperature varies a lot, I could imagine it wouldn't be pretty. (I shoot reduced course, so my knowledge past 300yds is slight).

 

[Cheapo]

What's your ES with 4064, Poodleshooter? I've used that one in .30-06 with great results, but in .308 have tried it only with 190s...should have had a Chrono FIRST during load development of that one ...

I've never seen any comparisons of the temperature effects between powders in .308--just very generic "this factory ammo and those other three factory and this one or two handloads" articles.

 

[HankL]

Cheapo, I will give you this bit of data.

Using Lake City 82 Brass Lot #?????. CCI 200 primers Lot#?????.
Hornady 168 gr HPBT Lot# ??????. "Special Ball" powder as marketed by Pat McDonald. OAL 2.828 . Fired in a M1A Fulton Pearless on 7 March 1997 at Magnolia Rifle and Pistol Club.
Temp was near 75 degrees F for the entire session.

45.0 gr 2458 avg fps. 13 sd.
45.5 gr 2521 avg fps. 7 sd.
46.0 gr 2545 avg fps. 13 sd.
47.0 gr 2559 avg fps. 11 sd.

etc. etc.

During the same session Federal 168 gr Match Lot ????? was fired yielding these figures.

2595 avg fps. 21 sd.

Conclusions??? Get a chrono, keep and manage the info you gather. I wish that I was better at managing my info.

I would really enjoy taking a box of Federal 168 Match of the same lot number and 20 of my favorites of the above reloads out and try to keep the Fed at 75 degrees while letting the reloads bake in an ammo can in the sun for a while but it is not possible to recreated all of the other variables. Barrels get replaced and lot numbers in your supply run out.

 

[Cheapo]

Thanks for the data, HankL.

I've always roughly calculated temperature up = somany clicks up from the old Army match unit books. Does the military's use of ball powders for some loads like M118 SB mean that those elevation adjustments need adjusting?