Surefire Rifle lights - Are they crazy????

[Dave3006]

I was considering a Surefire light for my Mini-14. My experience is that the Surefire lights are the best that there are. I just got done looking at the pricing for the simplest barrel mounted light with a pressure pad. Those guys want $245 for the thing!!!!!! They must be insane. I almost spit my coffee out.

I know they make the best light. I know a flashlight on a rifle can be worth it's weight in gold. However, $245 is a joke. I would be surprized if they have $35-40 in material and labor cost into this thing. I can't help but think they are doing a little gouging of the customer. Or, maybe they sell so many to Uncle Sam that they can get away with it. The price seems way over the top.

Needless to say, I won't be buying their overpriced flashlight.

 

[Steve Smith]

If it'll reach out to 600 yards, we'll have another way to shoot HP....doubt it

 

[ctdonath]

Plastic injection molds are surprisingly expensive. Add to that specialty switches, high-impact lights, high quality control standards, and - especially - a very small market, the result is an expensive-seeming product.

 

[uglygun]

Some of the various mounts needed can really up the cost of the entire package, the price isn't just the light but it's also the barrel mount and an adapter or two plus however you want your switches run. That can add up, for my AR15s the package I was looking at was about 300 until they came out with the Surefire 500A a few years back, the entire dedicated housing after delivery to my house was only 250 dollars which was a deal to me compared to the other option I was looking at. The actual light itself is really only about 75-80 bucks or maybe a bit more now considering some of the other models they've got out.


Some of the Surefire mounting brackets, when you get in and look at the stuff it's similar to looking at the ARMS mounts, the proof is in the pudding or rather in the quality of materials.



But there are a few other options out there these days.

 

[Dave3006]

Your last statement contains the real reason. I'm sorry, there is not that much materials there to justify $300. I run a manufacturing business. There are no high tolerance machining processes here. machined aluminum and pressure pads that they probably purchase from an overseas vendor.

Can you say greed?

 

[fed168]

Dave, an option would be to get the light without the mounting kit. Attach a weaver style rail to the stock, get an old scope ring, you are fixed. Best thing to do is shop around, suppliers generally sell stuff cheaper than the factory.

 

[Dave3006]

Actually, what I have done in some of the classes I have taken is to simply duct tape a 6P to the side of my weapon. It works well without the $250 price tag. Never broke a lamp yet on my AR and Garand.

 

[ronin308]

Dave- The price isn't determined solely by the price of labor/raw materials. There's supply and demand, R&D costs, manufacturing overhead, adverising/promotiion, etc. costs that Surefire has to worry about. I'm pretty sure that most of their stuff is produced in-house, like their bodies, switches, and reflectors. If Surefire is indeed overcharging for their product, they will have a great surplus. So either the light will go down in price, or they will just stop manufacturing it. Hopefully it'll go down in price!

 

[rocko]

While I'm sure part of their high cost has to do with the fact that they are only player in the game, I can only imagine what their R&D costs are - they seem to be constantly developing new and better products. Think about it - if it was really that lucrative of a business, I'm sure someone else would be doing it as well. Hell, imagine what their battery bill for testing is, alone . Which I believe is a good point - the initial cost of a surefire seems to be dwarfed by the cost of its upkeep. If you are part of their real target market (LE and mil) and use the light regularly, I imagine you would go through several hundred dollars worth of batteries in a year, even buying in bulk.

I guess taping a 6p to your gun would work, but without an anti-shock bezel, you really run the risk of blowing a lamp when you need it most - and I guess that's what people pay the big $$$ for. To have the most reliable light on the market when their life is on the line. You can buy a Ruger auto for 50% the cost of an H&K, and it will probably do the job 90% as well. You want the best, you pay for it - usually significantly more than something that will do the job nearly as well. That seems to be true whether its flashlights, guns, or just about anything else.

Rocko

 

[Navy joe]

They're worth it. I only have one right now, a M-3 Millenium handheld, but it is hands down the best light out there. Illuminates to 150 yds too, no problem, that would be kinda fun on a rifle. As long as nobody was shooting back that is.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Well, this is going to sound pretty naive, but Navy Joe is getting to a more interesting subject to me.

I see a shotgun as generally a more likely home defense firearm. I recognize an AR or AK could certainly be handy, but I think most folks would be uncomfortable use them in a home defense situation. Thus, while I can see a SureFire on a shotgun, it seems much less necessary on an AR.

If we've got the pricing covered, what say ye on the tactical need?

Regards from AZ

 

[G3]

Don't believe the Surefire hype. They are unreliable and way overpriced. I am one of the dumbasses who spent $300 putting a Surefire on my rifle. Guess what? Two shots and the bulb broke. Sure the company will replace them for free, but the lack of QC for that much money is a sick joke. I mean Surefire knows these lights on going on emergency life saving equipment, right?

I have had the same problem with two different 6Ps. Plus, don't drop the lights or it will cost you $20.

I bought a Streamlight Scorpion for $35, a weaver mount, 1" ring. It works just as well, and neary a malfunction after a 1k rounds.

I will admit I love their E2, but if Streamlight made a flashlight that small I would have bought it.

IMHO, Surefire is really pricing themselves out of the market.

Seventy bucks for a fragile flashlight is getting hard to justify.

 

[Jeff White]

G3,
In fairness to SureFire, they did receive a bad lot of lamp units. This could happen to any manufacturer. I own 3 SureFire weapons lights (a 6v system on my Colt R6920 that rides in the squad car, a 6v system for my Benelli M121 shotgun and a 6v classic system on my HK USP .45) I carry a 6z on my duty belt and an M3 Combat Light in my Tac Vest. I had the same luck that you had with the HK UTL made by Insights Technology. It kept breaking lamp units and unlike SureFire, they wouldn't replace them for free. I do believe that the Insight Technology unit is not as well designed or constructed as the SureFire lights. I wish SureFire would make one as small as it is though....

Jeff,

I use my AR as the primary defensive weapon around the house. I find it a much better home defense weapon then a shotgun. I think that every weapon that you use for that type of role needs a dedicated light. It's indispensible for target ID and useful as a weapon in it's own right. You can use the bright light to intimidate and disorient an intruder, maybe making the use of deadly force unnecessary. Let me relate a personal experience I've had with the use of light as a tactical tool.

I live in the country about 17 miles from town, next to a State Park. Response time from the County Sheriff's office can be 20-90 minutes depending on the time of day and where the deputies are when the call comes in. My house is at the end of an 867 ft private drive that I share with the property that borders the county road.

It was August of 1998 about 11:00 pm. I had been in bed just long enough to get to sleep, when my son woke me. "Dad, a pickup just came all the way down the driveway with it's lights off, turned around and headed back out to the road. It stopped at Ed's house and they got out of the truck, I think they are messing with one of Ed's vehicles." (Ed was the neighbor who lived between my property and the road at the time) I knew that Ed had been working out of town and didn't know if he returned yet. So I asked my wife to call his house while I was getting dressed. She called and got no answer. I got dressed, and grabbed my duty carbine (a 16" Bushmaster preban heavy barrel at that time), called 911 (the dispatch center is in the PD I work for) and asked them to send someone this way. I then moved to a covered and concealed position near the property line where I could watch what was going on and waited. There were 3 men and a woman and they were removing parts from one of Ed's cars. Laughing cutting up, just having a good time. My plan was to wait until someone in uniform arrived (it was a property crime and I didn't see any need to take any action alone unless they tried to leave). About 15 minutes later they removed the parts they wanted and headed for their truck. I waited until they were all in the open near their truck, and lit them up with the 6v SureFire and ordered them to freeze. I had them all raise their hands and one at a time, had them turn 360 dgrees with their hands up (let me observe their waistbands for weapons) and then proned them out on the ground where they waited until the deputies arrived.

I don't think I would have been able to handle this so effectively alone without the 6v SureFire. The bright light startled them and a quick flash of it in each of their faces robbed them of their night vision. They had no idea if I was one person or twenty or even if I was armed (however in this rural area just about everyone is armed, so you might say that that was a reasonable assumption ) The deputies took them into custody and I went back to bed, but first my wife chastised me for grabbing the weapon and forgetting my vest

In short the light is an excellent tactical tool. It may not exactly fall into the force continuum as a weapon, but you can surely use it to help control suspects or intruders in your home. You do have to be careful about windows, mirrors and bright walls so you don't dazzle yourself with a reflection, but a little walk through your house will give you some ideas how to effectively use the light.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Jeff, thank you very much. That was an interesting experience, and a great example of your point.

You realize, of course, that when you justify equipment like this, you're costing me a lot of money, and probably straining relations with my wife?

Thanks, and take care out there. We appreciate your service.

Regards from AZ

 

[Mannlicher]

I just cant see any reason to buy a flashlight for a rifle. Or a pistol, or a shotgun. Never could see any rational behind that, and certainly not at the prices Surefire charges.

 

[G3]

Jeff,

That was the same excuse SureFire gave me; after repeatedly telling me that's the first they had heard of the problem. The flaw to that "bad batch" excuse is that I have had this problem dating back to 1997 to fall of 2001.

It's no fun spending big bucks on a class, and having your $300 flashlight go TU. Luckily, I brought a spare bulb.

I suggest anyone using a Surefire product test out their light for 20 minutes before putting it to a "social" use. The problem lights seem to burn out within the first 20 minutes. If they survive that, the lights will usually be fine until you drop them.

I have no experience with Insights lights; they look pretty cheaply constructed to me. Steamlight is the most durable light going IMHO.

 

[Jeff White]

G3,

We use Streamlights in the squad cars. I prefer them to all the large rechargable lights. I've had nothing but bad luck with their big competitor in that market, Maglight. You hit on the solution, carry a spare lamp. I have the lexan spares carrier that has batteries and a lamp. Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. My biggest complaint with all these lights is the way they eat those expensive DL123 batteries. My Streamlight Scorpion isn't any better then any of the SureFires in this regard.

Mannlicher,
If you don't want to spend the money for a deicated light, it's your choice. I would recommend buying a high quality handheld light and learning to use it with your defensive weapon of choice.

Jeff

 

[Double Naught Spy]

For my AR15, I have a GG&G (Arizona) D&D (Down and Dirty) 1" light attachment that works well for Streamlight Scorpions or many Surefire lights like the Z3 (which I have on) that are designed to handle the shock. There are several variations of this sort of mount, but probably the next easiest to duct taping is to get a 12 gauge shotgun extended magazine barrel clamp. This clamp will clasp the barrel as well as the light and you can have the light under the barrel or to either side, whatever suits you. With Surefires and mounted under, your just bump the butt switch with your knuckle to illuminate.

With a scropion, Z2, or Z3, I have no problem getting sufficient illumination out beyond 100 yards which is plenty for me.

The GG&G mount for my AR was $35. The 12 gauge magazine clamp runs about $6-10 depending on material and manufacturer. A Scorpion will run about $30, Z2 $65, and Z3 around $80. You could have a very functional light setup, with light, for about $100.

Check out GG&G as http://www.gggaz.com/ as they have some neat AR gadgets as well as more than one type of light setup. I got the D&D light mount because I couldn't afford the $350 setup and actually don't need all the light the more expensive setup had to offer. When I chatted with the folks at GG&G, they said they had just filled an order for something like 1500 of the D&D units for the military. As the name implies, they are down and dirty (simple concept) but very stable and very functional.

 

[Ken J. Good]

“Can’t see why I need a light on a shotgun, rifle, handgun…”

In Law Enforcement there is small matter called target identification and justified use of force. Shooting a silhouette in the dark, regardless of what you assumed or saw a few seconds earlier can be a recipe for disaster. Get the video "Low-light Shooting 015-7 " from http://www.lineofduty.com
More often than not a law enforcement officer will be faced with a no-shoot situation. See: Bryant Shooting http://www.surefire.com/cgi-bin/mai...sesent=0,0&strfnbr=6&pgname=institute_reading – This resulted in a sizable settlement paid out to the victim as well a substantial order of Weapon-mounted shotgun lights. IMHO a shotgun without a light is less than 1/2 a shotgun, as most lethal force encounters will take place in dark. You can look at the DOJ stats for LE officers killed in the line of duty.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Civilian applications are similar to LE applications in the sense that you need to ID your target before you engage. This does not necessarily mean you need to illuminate the threat every time. I.E. You are in a safe area of you home and all family members are accounted for. But, many cannot guarantee this will be the scenario they will face.

Currently the U.S. Special Forces from all services are using SureFire 6P’s, M900A vertical foregrip systems and various configurations the SureFire Millennium Universal Tactical Light System that has over 60 variants depending on switching, voltage, lamp assembly and reflector choice. Why? Because Night Vision Devices do not provide clear enough target identification. Combatants and indigenous friendly forces look, dress, use the same transportation and carry similar weapons. The current technology does not provide sufficient resolution to provide the necessary level of situational awareness. Therefore once they are lined up on suspected enemy forces, they are illuminating them with white-light prior to actually engaging them. Our lights are also being deployed in the search of the extensive network of caves. You may recall our soldiers in Viet Nam were forced to crawl into underground caves with 3 things. Their wits, a.45 cal pistol and a flashlight.

Peacekeeping missions also place soldiers who in the past could shoot anything moving of the end of their muzzle, into more of a national law enforcement role. Bad things happen at night, and many times they will simply need to see before firing a weapon.

I have been told over and over again, you turn that light on and I will do such and such (many of folks sitting behind the anonymity of an Internet Discussion Board). They got the easy part over with. We regularly run Force-on-Force simulations with Special Forces for all braches of the service as well as Law Enforcement officers from around the globe (in my case for the last 20 years). I can unequivocally state that an operator who knows how to properly employ white-light illumination tools as in weapon-mounted, against an opponent who does not have a white-light option will more often than not defeat that opponent in a reduced light situation.

See: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001592

The key is proper employment from understanding gained through proper training. An operator must understand the light as an asset and a liability. He must know when to run in stealth mode or when emit blinding front light when he/she is backlight and stealth is not longer available because of the overall lighting conditions.

As far as SureFire prices, yes they are the most expensive illumination tools out there. I simply ask you how much your life is worth? I do not shop for parachutes on price only. I buy the best I can possibly afford, because I am planning to prevail. Yes you can tape a mini-mag or a Home Depot special on your AR. Yes you can tape one of our lower priced polymer G2’s and maybe get the job done. You can also elect to do it with the highest-quality possible. You individual desire and resources will be the driving factors. That is what makes America great. Chevrolet and Porsche dealers are both doing O.K. What amazes me, is that somebody will dump $2,500 into an AR to make it shoot marginally better, but will not spend the money to make it the best it could be in a reduced illumination evironment.

I see the primary reason being for the higher prices is that our product line changes from week to week, literally. We find a better way to do it; we almost immediately re-tool and introduce the change. We do not have a mass-produce mentality. We have a niche-market, those who want top quality. We have our own state of the art turning center where most of our parts are made.

One of our competitors recently started a Low-Light academy. For years a saying at the the SureFire Institute has been “Win the light first, and you will probably win the Gunfight” This new training institutions motto is “Control the light, Control the Fight”. They and their products are following, not leading. Leading costs money. Highest quality costs money. Inovation costs money. Many significant innovations in tactical immuniation tools has come from SureFire. Rear mounted switches, tape switches, turboheads, modular weaon systems, dedicated forends, embeded navigation level lighting, multi levels of light digital technology, etc. have orginated from the SureFire engineering folks. More are coming. Providing training to LE and military clients costs us money. We over-deliver so that people understand that we are genuinely interested in their survival and will go to whatever lengths necessary to make the right tools (hardware) backed up with the right training (software). We get out there in the training environment so we can listen to what the end-user has to say about what works or does not work. All of this backuped by strong customer service and support. It fails..we fix or replace.

Our tools are meant and specifically designed to go into harms way. Do they fail sometimes? Yes. The actual lamp failure rate that we know of is extremely low. It would upset me, if I bought an expensive tool and the lamp failed at the outset. We hear that loud and clear. We have some things in the pipeline that are going to radically reduce the probabilities of this happening. Nevertheless, I always carry backups, as Mr. Murphy is ever-present during conflict.

Are SureFire Weaponlights perfect? Absolutely not. We are looking to improve, constantly and regularly solicit the help of in the field operators to make them better.

Reaching out 600 yards no, 400 yards Yes. We need to change the H.P. rules.

Expecting to draw plenty of fire...

Respectfully,

Ken J. Good
Director of the SureFire Institute
http://surefireinstitute.com

 

[JIH]

Yes, they're too high. However, if people keep buying the stuff at that price, they'll keep selling it at that price.

So is a H&K product. So is a Porsche. Yes, there's a certain amount of extra quality and other goodies, but you're buying a lot of the name too.

A Mall Ninja and his money are soon parted.