So, I have been looking at the 147gr. 9mm rounds that have gotten a bit more popular lately, and I was wondering what people thought of them. I like the idea of avoiding the sonic-boom to prevent hearing loss (or at least lessen it) and I'm not averse to heavy bullets, but I'm not sure what changes in the shooting experience will be as compared to standard-pressure 115gr bullets. Will recoil be greater? Less? Faster? Slower? How much is the point of aim going to change? If I find a flat-point 147gr. bullet, is that sufficient for self-defense (would be nice to practice more...)? What does everybody think?
Subsonic Ammo: Yes or No?
- Thread starter Daekar
- Start date
The 147 was originally developed for use in a SMG ,MP5 I think. Criteria was an accurate subsonic [they would also use a supressor] that would reliably function in that gun.
Somehow idiots thought that that round would make the 9mm into a perfect miracle round !
The early ones didn't reliably expand and in some pistols didn't function well. More recent ones have improved.I see no need for them as the 115 and 124 gr work well.
The sound levels will be lower but I have no personal experience to compare though inside any gun is loud. I do regularly use sub-sonic 22lr but that's a different story.
Somehow idiots thought that that round would make the 9mm into a perfect miracle round !
The early ones didn't reliably expand and in some pistols didn't function well. More recent ones have improved.I see no need for them as the 115 and 124 gr work well.
The sound levels will be lower but I have no personal experience to compare though inside any gun is loud. I do regularly use sub-sonic 22lr but that's a different story.
Probably should change the name of this thread to "147 gr 9mm" to be more specific, as you can find subsonic loadings in other calibers.
Here is a nice link to some ballistics testing:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
147 gr 9mm had its issues when it came out, but has improved a lot since then. Since it did have issues at the beginning, the myth perpetuates today that it still has problems. Overall, from what I have read it penetrates a bit more than 124 gr and expands fractionally less. I see no reason not to use it, and there are some nice options for defense rounds in that weight.
I find it has a bit more recoil than the 115 gr, but barely noticeable. I also seem to find that my accuracy improves, but that could be me being delusional or my gun. If you shoot any larger calibers it probably won't be an issue. Good old hickok45 on youtube actually prefers 147 gr 9mm.
All in all, it's probably a wash. If you want to shoot it fine, I see no problems with it, though it is more expensive and I have never found 147 gr 9mm at my local Wally Worlds. Best bet is to order in bulk online.
Someone will be along shortly to disagree.
Here is a nice link to some ballistics testing:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
147 gr 9mm had its issues when it came out, but has improved a lot since then. Since it did have issues at the beginning, the myth perpetuates today that it still has problems. Overall, from what I have read it penetrates a bit more than 124 gr and expands fractionally less. I see no reason not to use it, and there are some nice options for defense rounds in that weight.
I find it has a bit more recoil than the 115 gr, but barely noticeable. I also seem to find that my accuracy improves, but that could be me being delusional or my gun. If you shoot any larger calibers it probably won't be an issue. Good old hickok45 on youtube actually prefers 147 gr 9mm.
All in all, it's probably a wash. If you want to shoot it fine, I see no problems with it, though it is more expensive and I have never found 147 gr 9mm at my local Wally Worlds. Best bet is to order in bulk online.
Someone will be along shortly to disagree.
Mrgunsngear
New member
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the 147 grain rounds. I have some hornady tap 147s in one of my carry guns as we speak.
That said, you do need to be aware they penetrate on average, 2-3'' further than their 124 grain counterparts. If you're good with 14-15'' of penetration, go for it.
That said, you do need to be aware they penetrate on average, 2-3'' further than their 124 grain counterparts. If you're good with 14-15'' of penetration, go for it.
Will Beararms
New member
If I am carrying a 9mm, I want the biggest, fastest, most penetrating option-----come to think of it, I feel that way about all handgun calibers.
The Winchester "T" Series 147gr RA9T and Winchester Bonded 147gr RA9B, Remington 147gr Golden Saber, and Speer 9mm 147 grain Gold Dot all penetrate to around 14" and expand t around .60"
Just my own thinking - I personally believe that's about the best you can hope for with the 9mm fired from a pistol.
Just my own thinking - I personally believe that's about the best you can hope for with the 9mm fired from a pistol.
zombieslayer
New member
Im not a fan of 147's. I like regular non plus p 115's.
This is the heaviest 9mm ammo I've run across
158gr Fiocchi - of course they call it "Sub-Sonic"
http://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-158-gr-fmj-sub-sonic-fiocchi-50-rounds
158gr Fiocchi - of course they call it "Sub-Sonic"
http://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-158-gr-fmj-sub-sonic-fiocchi-50-rounds
The 147gr 9mm loadings were originally developed in the aftermath of the 1986 Miami Shootout and the resulting change in FBI (and by extension most LEO) thoughts on handgun bullet performance. Originally, they were designed to give better penetration than the 115gr 9mm loadings then-available (124-127gr loadings didn't come along until several years later). While they certainly did penetrate better, it wasn't possible to get reliable expansion from 1980's and early 90's era .355" bullets at subsonic velocities while still maintaining feeding reliability in a semi-automatic handgun. Because of this, they quickly gained a poor reputation based on numerous failures to expand.
Modern-day premium 147gr 9mm loadings are, as has been pointed out, greatly improved. With good ammo like Winchester Ranger, Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dots, a 147gr 9mm can offer both reliable expansion and excellent penetration.
That being said, I much prefer a mid-weight 124-127gr +P or +P+ loading like Winchester Ranger 127gr T-Series +P+ or Speer 124gr Gold Dot +P. 9mm loadings of this weight have had a pretty universal good reputation from the get-go and have proven to work well at velocities from 1100fps to over 1300fps. By choosing the faster 124-127gr 9mm loadings, I feel that I'm better compensating for velocity reductions due to variables like barrel length, intermediate barriers, and range. Also, from the guns I've shot, 9mm loadings of this weight are usually very accurate and shoot closest to POA.
Modern-day premium 147gr 9mm loadings are, as has been pointed out, greatly improved. With good ammo like Winchester Ranger, Federal HST, or Speer Gold Dots, a 147gr 9mm can offer both reliable expansion and excellent penetration.
That being said, I much prefer a mid-weight 124-127gr +P or +P+ loading like Winchester Ranger 127gr T-Series +P+ or Speer 124gr Gold Dot +P. 9mm loadings of this weight have had a pretty universal good reputation from the get-go and have proven to work well at velocities from 1100fps to over 1300fps. By choosing the faster 124-127gr 9mm loadings, I feel that I'm better compensating for velocity reductions due to variables like barrel length, intermediate barriers, and range. Also, from the guns I've shot, 9mm loadings of this weight are usually very accurate and shoot closest to POA.
@ Webley
You make some very good points. I also like the mid weight 9mm. I hadn't though much about the higher velocity making up for shorter barrel lengths, that is a good point. Right now my SD rounds in my Glock 19 are Speer Gold Dot 124 +P and I do find them quite accurate, though I have found 147 gr to be just as accurate.
Part of my preference for 147 gr vs 124 gr +P is the +p difference. While +p is somewhat standardized, it's still a higher pressure than the standard going through the weapon. This makes me "feel" that it would cause the gun to wear out faster. Of course I don't shoot boxes and boxes of SD rounds through my firearms, usually 1 box a month to insure my point of aim, but I still feel that if you can achieve the same performance without the added wear, then it might be worth it.
You make some very good points. I also like the mid weight 9mm. I hadn't though much about the higher velocity making up for shorter barrel lengths, that is a good point. Right now my SD rounds in my Glock 19 are Speer Gold Dot 124 +P and I do find them quite accurate, though I have found 147 gr to be just as accurate.
Part of my preference for 147 gr vs 124 gr +P is the +p difference. While +p is somewhat standardized, it's still a higher pressure than the standard going through the weapon. This makes me "feel" that it would cause the gun to wear out faster. Of course I don't shoot boxes and boxes of SD rounds through my firearms, usually 1 box a month to insure my point of aim, but I still feel that if you can achieve the same performance without the added wear, then it might be worth it.
So long as your gun is rated for +P, I wouldn't worry too much about it. While it is true that, theoretically, +P ammo will wear out a gun faster than standard pressure ammo would, I've never met anyone who shot enough 9mm +P to wear a gun out. Assuming a good quality modern gun, you will almost certainly spend many times what the gun costs in ammo before it ever wears out regardless of whether you are shooting standard pressure or +P ammo.
LJS hush-puppy, 147gr 9x19mm rounds....
I'm not a big supporter of the 147gr JHP "sub-sonic" 9mm loads for self defense or duty(LE, armed security, etc).
These rounds were designed for use with surpressed duty pistols to "render harmless" any enemy guard dogs.
The 124gr +P bonded JHP or the Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP are far better in a modern 9x19mm sidearm.
The 147gr loads are in use by many gunners & US police agencies but a few PDs have either cut the 147gr JHP round or upgraded to a .40/.357sig due to the problems or shortfalls.
ClydeFrog
I'm not a big supporter of the 147gr JHP "sub-sonic" 9mm loads for self defense or duty(LE, armed security, etc).
These rounds were designed for use with surpressed duty pistols to "render harmless" any enemy guard dogs.
The 124gr +P bonded JHP or the Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP are far better in a modern 9x19mm sidearm.
The 147gr loads are in use by many gunners & US police agencies but a few PDs have either cut the 147gr JHP round or upgraded to a .40/.357sig due to the problems or shortfalls.
ClydeFrog
TR's post, Massad Ayoob...
To reply to a member's question,
Author & tactics instructor Massad Ayoob wrote a article about 2mo ago in a popular gun magazine about the best 9x19mm rounds to use.
It was part of a reader's question to Ayoob about what type of 9x19mm rounds to carry in his protection sidearm.
I also read a item many years ago where a violent subject was shot at close range by a SWAT officer. The 147gr 9mm bullet went completely through the subject and was recovered in a bathroom wall.
The crime scene techs & detectives saw the recovered bullet was fully intact & could be reloaded & fired again!
That's not what I'd want in a protection/duty 9x19mm round.
ClydeFrog
To reply to a member's question,
Author & tactics instructor Massad Ayoob wrote a article about 2mo ago in a popular gun magazine about the best 9x19mm rounds to use.
It was part of a reader's question to Ayoob about what type of 9x19mm rounds to carry in his protection sidearm.
I also read a item many years ago where a violent subject was shot at close range by a SWAT officer. The 147gr 9mm bullet went completely through the subject and was recovered in a bathroom wall.
The crime scene techs & detectives saw the recovered bullet was fully intact & could be reloaded & fired again!
That's not what I'd want in a protection/duty 9x19mm round.
ClydeFrog
@ Clyde
Thanks, I will look up that article.
Edit: I do respect Ayoob, as he works in the state I live, but like I said, stories spread and get adopted. Could be the case there.
As to the story, are we sure it was a hollow point? Could be a lot of factors in that story.
My point is there isn't really a definitive study in the past couple of years that has proven or disproven what loading is better. Most people quote stories, and I don't personally trust those as credible.
Thanks, I will look up that article.
Edit: I do respect Ayoob, as he works in the state I live, but like I said, stories spread and get adopted. Could be the case there.
As to the story, are we sure it was a hollow point? Could be a lot of factors in that story.
My point is there isn't really a definitive study in the past couple of years that has proven or disproven what loading is better. Most people quote stories, and I don't personally trust those as credible.
Last edited:
VA State Police; .357sig, 147gr 9x19mm duty load, dogs...
I wanted to add to my last message about the formal Wikipedia entry for the .357sig caliber saying how VA State Police troopers reported that dogs shot on duty were put down with one clean shot using the .357sig where in the past, multiple solid hits with the 9x19mm/factory 147gr HP were needed.
The type of service weapon or the exact brand of 147gr 9mm HP ammunition was not documented in the Wikipedia entry.
To my knowledge, the state troopers used the SIG Sauer P226 or P228 9x19mm prior to the selection of the P229 in .357sig.
Some sworn personnel may have used the S&W 5900/3900 series or another model on duty too.
FWIW; Massad Ayoob has stated he advises the use of the Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P(issue for the NYPD) & the popular Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP. The Ranger Ts may be hard to buy in some areas. A good web source is; www.sgammo.com .
I wanted to add to my last message about the formal Wikipedia entry for the .357sig caliber saying how VA State Police troopers reported that dogs shot on duty were put down with one clean shot using the .357sig where in the past, multiple solid hits with the 9x19mm/factory 147gr HP were needed.
The type of service weapon or the exact brand of 147gr 9mm HP ammunition was not documented in the Wikipedia entry.
To my knowledge, the state troopers used the SIG Sauer P226 or P228 9x19mm prior to the selection of the P229 in .357sig.
Some sworn personnel may have used the S&W 5900/3900 series or another model on duty too.
FWIW; Massad Ayoob has stated he advises the use of the Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P(issue for the NYPD) & the popular Winchester Ranger T 127gr +P+ JHP. The Ranger Ts may be hard to buy in some areas. A good web source is; www.sgammo.com .
bamaranger
New member
147-P228
When we went from round guns to flat guns, (mid 90's) the transition pistol was the Sig P228 and the load was the 147 JHP. Everybody got one, and 147 gr ammo was heavily distributed as well. There were no shootings of felons to my knoweledge, but I had the ususal run on feral dogs/cats and dispatching deer at deer v. car MVA's. I was not impressed, and though it seemed no less load than the +P+ /110 that was the federal ed std for years (from K & L frame Smiths), it certainly was not .357/125 which
was the last service load prior the onset of the auto's.
It seemed to me, from the stubby P228, that velocity might be down and expansion marginal. A couple of years later, when .40 and .45 Sigs became an option, there was an almost universal abandonment of the P228-9mm.
When we went from round guns to flat guns, (mid 90's) the transition pistol was the Sig P228 and the load was the 147 JHP. Everybody got one, and 147 gr ammo was heavily distributed as well. There were no shootings of felons to my knoweledge, but I had the ususal run on feral dogs/cats and dispatching deer at deer v. car MVA's. I was not impressed, and though it seemed no less load than the +P+ /110 that was the federal ed std for years (from K & L frame Smiths), it certainly was not .357/125 which
was the last service load prior the onset of the auto's.
It seemed to me, from the stubby P228, that velocity might be down and expansion marginal. A couple of years later, when .40 and .45 Sigs became an option, there was an almost universal abandonment of the P228-9mm.
147gr HST is probably the best performing 9mm jhp on the market right now.
these police accounts of how amazing the 357sig is always crack me up.
they make no mention of the numerous factors involved, and cops seem to believe similar shot placement with a similar quality 9mm jhp brand wouldn't have done the job, despite the fact that the fbi found the 357sig penetrates and expands almost exactly the same as hot 9mm's.
the extra blast/recoil the 357sig has over the 9mm has been theorized by dr. roberts to possibly have a psychological affect on these officers as an explanation as t why they think the round is so much better.
these police accounts of how amazing the 357sig is always crack me up.
they make no mention of the numerous factors involved, and cops seem to believe similar shot placement with a similar quality 9mm jhp brand wouldn't have done the job, despite the fact that the fbi found the 357sig penetrates and expands almost exactly the same as hot 9mm's.
the extra blast/recoil the 357sig has over the 9mm has been theorized by dr. roberts to possibly have a psychological affect on these officers as an explanation as t why they think the round is so much better.
Last edited: