Submachine gun ammunition

[BlueTrain]

I raised the question in another thread, which I now can't find, about the existance of special submachine gun. I did a little research in such references as I happen to have and this is what I found.

I was surprised that no mention was made by Frank Barnes in his book about cartridges of the world. But he made no claim to being the ultimate authority, which he pretty much was anyway. So on to other sources.

The older Smith & Smith Small Arms of the World were pretty comprehensive and there was reference to submachine gun-only ammunition, so on that basis, I guess it existed. But the book was about the arms and not ammuntion, so that was the extent of the information.

The question appears to be mainly about the 9mm Luger/Parabellum cartridge. It would appear that more submachine guns have been chambered in that round than any other, followed by the .45 ACP. There may have actually been more produced in 7.62 Tokarev than the others put together but there weren't many different models and I had no production numbers anyway. But beyond those three, there was also 7.63 Mauser, 9mm Mauser (which Smith called "overpowered"), 9mm Largo and 8mm Japanese. Those are all pistol cartridges and so I am making the post in this section.

The first submachine gun was a 9mm and Italian (the Villa Perosa) but it was chambered actually for the 9mm Gilsenti, which was a lower pressure 9mm P. When the Beretta submachine guns came out, they were in 9mm P but the ammuntion used was of a higher velocity (don't have any figures, again). It came packed in clips, which was unusual, and known as M38. I would imagine it continued in use into the 1950's.

In the case of Italy, however, 9mm Parabellum was not the service cartridge but rather the 9mm Corto or .380 ACP, after 1934, so there was no issue of mixing up cartridges and causing trouble.

An even more curious example of a high pressure pistol round would be the Czech loading of the 7.62 Tokarev, which was definately intended for use in a pistol, as well as other arms like submachine guns. During that period you would see frequent references to "burp guns," which appears to have gone out of our language, being replaced by "assault rifle," I suppose.

Beyond that, I found no references to special submachine gun ammuntion. However, many authors have referred to how American ammuntion companies load weaker ammuntion than European manufacturers, and not just for the 9mm but for just about everything. And judging from other recent threads, they also load weaker ammuntion after the round has been out for a few years. But that gives you a reason to buy the lastest and hotter loads!

So I guess I don't need to worry about accidently loading overpowered 9mm ammuntion into my Star.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Barnes' book is pretty fascinating.

As for the SMG ammunition issue, look at the numbers he has for the mil-spec 9x19mm compared to other loads listed. That's basically what people are talking about when they mention hot 9mm SMG ammunition. These days I think it is sort of a moot point with most weapons that are built with an eye towards hot civilian defensive loads, but back before +P and +P+ were commonplace it was an issue.

I've been told, but cannot confirm with hard numbers, that the current issue .45 ACP ammo we still have in the system is similarly very hot if it comes from Israel. US domestic production is supposedly not as hot. In my experience it all feels about the same when fired, so that may be an urban myth.

Finally, I've seen claims that the Czech vz 52 pistol has an exceptionally strong action (roller locks and all that) because the Czechs used 7.62 SMG ammo for their handguns as well. I don't know if that then means the Soviets during WW2 loaded seperate handgun and SMG loads for 7.62 pistol ammunition (would make sense, though, given how they were fond of using the SMG as a poor man's assault rifle rather than a specialist tool), or if that was something the Czechs came up with after WW2.

 

[BlueTrain]

One of the books I mentioned said that in developing submachine guns during WWI the Germans would have preferred to have a more powerful round than the standard 9mm round but for one reason or another, mainly because of wartime difficulties, they never pursued that idea. They did experiment with different 9mm rounds as it was anyway. The submachine gun they developed was the Bergman, which was copied (more or less) by the British as the Lancaster (or is it Lanchester?) and used for a long, long time. A very similiar (or the same) early Sig manufactured in 7.63 was purchased by Japan and a close copy was produced there in 8mm Nambu. Things get around, don't they?

On the subject of ammuntion procurement, isn't it surprising that we are buying ammuntion from Israel? We could probably get it cheaper from China, like we do everything else, it that is the idea. I do know for certain that 9mm has been purchased from Israel because there were contracts let for same. I haven't seen one lately but there is a public document published weekly or monthly of defense contracts. Some of it is interesting reading.

I wouldn't have called the submachine gun a poor man's assault rifle because it predates the concept considerably. In any case, there have certainly been differing views of the value of the submachine gun, and later, the so-called assault rifle. You would see the expressions "useless except at close range," "waste of ammuntion," "inaccurate," and many other terms applied to weapons the authors didn't care for. On the other hand, they weren't shy about praising foreign weapons if they deserved it.

On the general subject of high pressure or "high speed" ammuntion, it would be interesting to hear a discussion of why American produced ammuntion is typically weaker than European produced ammuntion, assuming for the moment that it actually is.

 

[Jim Watson]

Back when Lee Jurras ran Super-Vel and was making headlines with high velocity hollowpoints for handguns, he rounded up samples of the supposedly high powered, submachinegun only WW II German 9mm and shot them for pressure and velocity. They gave SAAMI range chamber pressures, seldom even +P. They were loud and gave high velocity because many of the loadings used light weight steel cores or whole sintered iron bullets to conserve lead and copper for more urgent needs than smallarms ammo.

The only 9mm ammo I have heard reliably to be too hot for handguns was the Hirtenberger L7A1 meant for Sterling SMGs in cold weather.

Why is American ammunition (thought to be) "weaker" than European?
Well, US 8mm Mauser is all derived from the 1920s Remington 8mm Special meant for use in the then common 1888 Commission Rifles and related sporters. The load is light for use in guns of old design and doubtful condition. The bullet is at or near .323" for reasonable accuracy in an "S" bore '98 but has a thin jacket and soft core to swage down in the .318" pre 1905 guns without running pressure up much.

US 9mm? The worst I have heard said is that it was loaded light so as to not compete with .38 Super or .38-44 HV. The best is that it, like the 8mm, was loaded light for safety in WW I souvenirs and post WW I parts gun Lugers.

 

[mete]

Random comments. I knew a fellow who fought in Europe in WWII with a Thompson SMG. It was always set on full auto yet he could fire as many rounds as he wanted ,one, two ,five etc. To gain that skill meant [as Col Cooper states also] extensive practice and constant use.Any full auto can waste ammo as many did with the low recoil M-16 in Viet Nam.Fire discipline is the answer ! The SMG HK MP-5 has been widely accepted by our military and police for various jobs .That gun certainly is very accurate. Hot ammo - there have been many comments about hot smg ammo . Some are rumor but some are true. Glock pistols have three different firing pin springs available the strongset is to fire SMG ammo that has extra hard primers for use in SMGs that are 'slam fired' ...One of the SMGs chambered in 9mm Mauser was a Swiss gun but they were never in a war and the gun was very poorly made .Expensive to make and required a gunsmith to even take apart !!...Early 9mm American ammo was on the weak sid e and often wouldn't function German guns [ P-08, P-38 etc] designed for full loads.

 

[BlueTrain]

I have heard about the different 8mm Mauser cartridges. It was odd of the Germans to have designed something that way, that is, a new cartridge that was unsafe in the older guns. On perhaps they simply chose not to worry about it, probably having more pressing matters to attend to. One internet retailer actually lists, 8mm Mauser, 8x57 JR, 8x57 JS and 8x57 JRS. I actually have an 8mm Mauser but I never quite realized there was that much variation.

A poorly made Swiss gun? Unbeleivable! Don't have any Swiss guns no how.

I had never heard that the 9mm was not loaded hot so as not to compete with other ammuntion. However, there were no other pre-war (pre WWII) guns available here other than Lugers. Lugers themselves were not all that uncommon and they had been sold commercially almost from the start but some would have been chambered in .30 Luger. I wouldn't imagine that it was a serious handgun for serious users at the time. Imported ammuntion was also usually available.

 

[HorseSoldier]

One of the books I mentioned said that in developing submachine guns during WWI the Germans would have preferred to have a more powerful round than the standard 9mm round but for one reason or another, mainly because of wartime difficulties, they never pursued that idea. They did experiment with different 9mm rounds as it was anyway.

Anthony William's webpage Cannon, Machine Guns, and Ammunition has some articles on the development of military small arms and such (you have to scroll down past the adverstisements for his books). It includes some photos of some interesting "super SMG" rounds that various European nations looked at, like 9x40mm (looks a lot like an M1 carbine .30 cal round) and a necked-down 9x35mm round.

On the subject of ammuntion procurement, isn't it surprising that we are buying ammuntion from Israel? We could probably get it cheaper from China, like we do everything else, it that is the idea.

My understanding is that it's a pretty short list on who meets US military quality control standards besides official production at Lake City. I think it is actually only whatever the Israeli company is and Winchester. There's also supposedly a Congressional ban on the use of any Israeli manufactured ammunition in Iraq or Afghanistan for fear someone's feelings might get hurt while they're, um, being shot . . .

I wouldn't have called the submachine gun a poor man's assault rifle because it predates the concept considerably. In any case, there have certainly been differing views of the value of the submachine gun, and later, the so-called assault rifle.

I meant it simply that the Soviets had entire units equipped with SMGs as the standard infantryman's weapon by the end of the war, functioning (anachronisms aside) as a sort of ersatz assault rifle, while most everyone else regarded them as weapons primarily for personal defense or in other specialized applications.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Italy also issued handguns and submachine guns in 9mm Glisenti.

The low-powered American ammunition connundrum got Smith & Wesson into BIG trouble in 1940 when the British gave the company $1 million and asked it to develop a carbine in 9mm.

The Light Rifle project was built around American 9mm Parabellum ammo, but when the British started testing it using standard service ammo the guns quickly failed.

Changes were make to the gun and it was reissued as the Mk II, but it didn't make much difference.

When the British asked for their $1 million back, S&W instead offered revolvers.


A lot has been written over the years about German 9mm submachine gun only ammunition, but no definitive evidence for such ammo has ever been presented. It was just standard 9mm ammo loaded to hot German specs (which the British also adopted for their 9mm specs.)

 

[Mike Irwin]

"One of the SMGs chambered in 9mm Mauser was a Swiss gun but they were never in a war and the gun was very poorly made .Expensive to make and required a gunsmith to even take apart !!..."

You're talking about the Steyr Solothurn Model 1934 and chambered in 9mm Mauser.

It was a German/Austrian design made in Switzerland due to Treaty of Versailles restrictions.

It was, in fact, EXCEPTIONALLY WELL made, to the highest degrees of fit and finish. It was expensive to make, but at that time virtually all firearms were expensive to make as they started with billets of steel and were laboriously machined -- stampings need not apply.

While it was certainly complex, I never found it to be particularly difficult to either take apart or reassemble.

After Germany annexed Austria many of these guns were rechambered to 9mm Parabellum and issued to German and Austrian police units.

 

[Jim Watson]

I recall an American Rifleman article by Jac Weller, who was connected enough to get tours of armies and factories back in the 1960s.
At the time, Italy issued two M1s per squad and the balance Beretta SMGs like late WW II issue. I think they used a pretty sustantial 9mm load, but nothing too stout for the 1951 Beretta pistol they went to under NATO.

 

[BlueTrain]

Jac Weller wrote a couple of books and several articles for gun magazines about infantry weapons and tactics. At the time everyone was in a state of transistion between old and new and by now the new is old, if you follow me. His articles were interesting and well written, though a little biased. He also was one of those that thought foreign policy difficulties were settled at squad level.

Were those Berettas the Italians used from the same Beretta company that manufactured the same Beretta pistols that everyone says fall apart? Something doesn't add up (but I have one possible answer).

I still find it funny that one writer found the 9mm Mauser "overpowered."

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Were those Berettas the Italians used from the same Beretta company that manufactured the same Beretta pistols that everyone says fall apart?"

Yes. Pietro Beretta. The company has been making guns for over 400 years.

 

[AK103K]

I dug out an old box of the Spanish 9mm SMG ammo and one of the Egyptian stuff I have. As best as I can read whats on the box, the Spanish is marked "9m/m para subfusil" which Babel fish translates to "9mm for sub-machine gun". There is also something that looks like "ametralladora"(machine gun) maybe "schmeisser", and "y pistola parrabellum"(and pistol parabellum), but its all pretty hard to read. Maybe someone who speaks/reads Spanish can make better sense of it. This was sold here through Paragon back in the 80's and was clearly marked on the cases in English "not for use in pistols--sub machine guns only".
Here's a pic of the box:

Heres a pic of the Egyptian stuff:

Your SOL for a translation here form me Maybe someone who reads Arabic can tell us what it says.(theres more on the other sides, if you need them) These are packed 36 rounds to a box, which happens to be just what a Swedish M45 ("K") and the Egyptian Port Said's stick magazine holds. This was also sold here as SMG only ammo.

 

[mete]

Mike, sorry I meant to say" poorly designed " not poorly made .I have not handled one but somewhere I read that it required a gunsmith for anything more than routine cleaning.Far more expensive than the Sten gun or other such WWII SMGs which were stamped out in huge numbers for very little cost. I'v seen a very interesting film ,made by the Danish resistance, of the manufacture of SMGs in a Danish toy factory !! Right under the noses of the German army.

 

[Arizona Fusilier]

Hmmm, nobody told me that Egyptian stuff was just SMG ammo

Maybe that's why the case split in my Beretta 92F?

Or was it all just crap?

 

[AK103K]

If you had shot the stuff in the box in the above pic, you would have noticed two things. It was pretty hot, and VERY corrosive. Its the most aggressively corrosive ammo I've ever come across.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I have not handled one but somewhere I read that it required a gunsmith for anything more than routine cleaning."

Mete,

Most guns require a gunsmith or armorer for anything other than a routine cleaning.

While they were easy to make, assmeble, and disassmeble, even the M3 and M3A1 grease guns required an armorer to take care of issues that a routine cleaning wouldn't take care of.

"Far more expensive than the Sten gun or other such WWII SMGs which were stamped out in huge numbers for very little cost."

And take a look at the other guns from the same time frame and you'll find the EXACT same things...

The German MP18 and 35, the Thompson, the Beretta 1935/1938, the MAS 38, the Reising, the Suomi 31, even the PPSh and the PPS submachine guns were far more complex than they truly needed to be, requiring moderate to heavy amounts of machining from blocks of solid steel, fabrication of wood stocks, the whole 9 yards, as it were.

The Steyr Solothurn 1934 was a creation of its time.

World War II was the catalyst for a HUGE change in how weapons were designed and manufactured.

The raw need for arms made expensive, time consuming old world craftsmanship a luxury that simply could not supported.

It's no accident that every combatant in WW II actively pursued new methods of firearms design and manufacture - to include casting and stamping - in an effort to get workable arms to the troops as quickly as possible.

It should also be noted that this process started during WW I in France, largely with the adoption of the ill-fated Chauchat machine gun. It was the harbinger of what was to come on the manufacturing front.

 

[mete]

From "Textbook of Automatic Pistols" Wilson/Hogg....The Swiss SMG was "the most complicated, most expensive, and most unsuitable weapon to enter military service " 5 Thousand were made at a time when the British factory was making 20,000 Sten guns per week at $ 5.20 per gun !!....The manufacturing methods and costs between the Thompson and M3 are also a good study !

 

[Mike Irwin]

Wilson and Hogg's timing doesn't work out.

The M1934 was out of production by the time Germany annexed Austria in 1938; relatively few M1934s were actually produced in Austria before the German annexation.

After the annexation, manufacturing by Steyr concentrated primarily on rifles and light machine guns.

Those M1934s in Austrian service were integrated into the German police and rear echelon troop structure.

We know that Switzerland shipped no more M1934s after September 1939 as it declared itself a neutral and stopped selling manufactured weapons to Germany at that time.

The Sten gun wasn't designed until after the British evacuated Dunkirk in 1940, and production didn't begin until 1941.

In addition, Germany had absolutely no reason to maintain the M1934 in production given that it was churning out MP38s and later MP40s in more than sufficient numbers.

Sorry, the timing just doesn't work out.

Also, I find it to be kind of curious that Wilson and Hogg would classify the M1934 as the most unsuitable military firearm ever to enter service given that most other submachine guns of the same time frame were virtually equally complex, and that there's the Chauchat to fall back on, not to mention any number of Italian and Japanese weapons.