Subgun ammon

[BlueTrain]

I suppose this is the proper section to pose this question. There is occasional mention of "subgun ammo" which is inappropriate for handguns in the same caliber. Since most, but not all, submachine guns have been chambered in .45 ACP, 9mm or 7.62 Tokarev, it has to be one of them, unless there is special submachine gun only ammunition for the .32 ACP. Just imagine!

Well, the question is, is there really such a thing? Highly possible, if not highly probable, since it would render meaningless the reason for the chambering in the first place. If there was such a thing, it was probably be 9mm, which the Germans used in their submachine guns. Their standard pistol was the Luger, of course, until replaced by the P38, and the Luger supposedly requires a high pressure load to function reliably. I had a Luger but that was before I had much experience with handguns, so I couldn't say from experience. Be that as it may, might it be that one reason Americans didn't like the 9mm was because it was lightly loaded by American companies, which might have led to the belief that some European ammuntion was "subgun ammo?"

I do know there have been several cartridges intended exclusively for machine guns, formerly called "heavy" but which would now be called "medium" machine guns. The Italians had one and the Japanese had one or two and the Swedish had one which they also chambered in a few rifles, just to simplify ammunition interchangeablility within machine gun units, presumably. But was there ever a submachine gun only pistol cartridge?

 

[AK103K]

I've bought quite a bit of 9mm ammo over the years designated SMG ammo. Most all of it was definitely hotter than any commercial or NATO, standard military ammo in the same caliber.

The first pic is a box of Spanish 9mm that is marked "for use in sub machine guns", and it is very hot. I bought a couple of 2000 round cases back in the 80's for use in my MAC, and only got through one before the upper on the MAC failed. Its in the second pic below. When you shot the gun, the rate of fire was a lot higher than normal, and the stock would wear a red crease on your cheek. It was hell on wheels while it lasted. The first indication something was amiss was when the charging knob sheared off early on. Just short of the 2000 round mark, the tube cracked noticeably around the ejection port.

The replacement upper has been fine for the last 23 years of use and many tens of thousands of rounds of NATO and commercial 9mm through it, with no issues or signs of failing.

Its been awhile since I've seen any of this type ammo for sale, and I think most of it was probably surplussed out in the 70's and 80's. The last batches I had were all head stamped in the mid 80's. That last lot of Hertenberger back in the late 90's was the last I've seen. It was said to be hot, but it didnt really seem to be.

The hottest commercial 9mm I've used was IMI black tipped "carbine" ammo that was out back in the late 80's, early 90's. I shot about a case through my MP5 and it actually started to fire form the brass into the flutes of the chamber. There were actually raised ridges on some of the brass, where normally there were just slight scratches. I never had any other ammo do that, but then again, I never shot any of the Spanish or Egyptian stuff in it. Some of the SMG marked ammo is also very corrosive, like the Egyptian, so that can also an issue you need to pay attention to.

 

[BlueTrain]

You made it sound like it was too hot for submachine guns!

 

[Dingoboyx]

I want one... no two of those...

Yum.... I is droolin' again

(there goes ANOTHER keyboard!)

 

[AK103K]

The SWD M11/9mm isnt as robust as most others. I believe it was meant to handle standard and NATO pressure 9mm, which it has and with no troubles. It works with good mags, and is a lot of fun, but I put it more in the "toy" category than anything else. Things like STENS, MP40's, M45's, UZI's, even the original MAC's, are a little more substantial than the M11/9mm.

Thats not saying a constant diet of SMG type ammo wont cause other guns to start having parts failures or structural failures either. Then again, many of the old guns are pretty simple and rugged, and dont really have anything to wear or break.

I use both +P and +P+ 9mm in my pistols on a limited basis. Mostly its higher dollar specialty ammo, and I really dont practice with it. I dont believe that a constant diet of either, but especially the +P+, is a good idea. If you want a hot 9mm, your better off moving up to a 357SIG.

 

[BlueTrain]

Curiously enough, I found no reference to submachine gun only ammunition in Frank C. Barnes book, Cartridges of the World, which is a pretty thorough work. I thought I had seen mention of such a thing in my copy of Small Arms of the World, which is a 1962 edition, but I couldn't find any reference when I went looking. But nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Sorry, Blue Train, but Cartridges of the World is a great overview, but it is FAR from a thorough resource.

There are dozens of commercial/military cartridges that are not listed in its pages, along with hundreds, if not thousands, of variations for rounds that are in the book that are not discussed.

Right off the top of my head I can think of maybe a dozen experimental military rifle cartridges, primarily European, that were produced in quantity but which never made it CotW for whatever reason. Handgun rounds, too.

 

[BlueTrain]

Are you sure about that? It has the 5.5 Velo Dog, the 8mm Rast-Gasser and the 458x1-inch Barnes (Barnes wrote the book). Sounds pretty complete.

Mine is a 2000 edition. Seriously, though, many of the cartridges, perhaps all of them, deserve a little more coverage but it's already over 500 pages long. The 6.8x57mm Chinese made it in.

 

[Chesster]

About 30 years ago there was some early 1950s vintage Czech SMG 9mm, Steel core, corrosive, super hot stuff imported. I think I bought several hundred rounds at the time for about $80 per K. About 10% had grungy primers and cases. I felt it was unsafe for most handguns of the time.