Sub 1" MOA with Wolf Polyformance Ammunition
- Thread starter rjinga
- Start date
precision_shooter
New member
Nice shooting.
Just a point of education/clarification because I see many people lately using this term.
"Sub 1" MOA" is a statement that contradicts itself.
1" is a measurement and 1 MOA is a measurement independent of each other.
You can have a sub 1" group or a sub MOA group. The units of measure are not interchangeable which is why they have their own names, inch and MOA (minute of angle).
While the size of 1" remains constant at any distance, the size of MOA changes based on distance. It is common for people to use MOA and Inch interchangeably at a fixed distance of 100 yards, but MOA size changes based on distance while inch is constant.
1" at 100 yards is 1". 1" at 30 yards is still 1".
1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047". 1 MOA at 30 yards is 0.3141".
Since you are measuring in meters, we have to convert meters to yards to figure MOA.
100 yards is 91.44 meters and 30 meters is 32.8084 yards.
So 1 MOA at 30 meters = 0.3435".
Post meant to be educational, and hopefully helps others to not use two units of measure to be the same thing.
Just a point of education/clarification because I see many people lately using this term.
"Sub 1" MOA" is a statement that contradicts itself.
1" is a measurement and 1 MOA is a measurement independent of each other.
You can have a sub 1" group or a sub MOA group. The units of measure are not interchangeable which is why they have their own names, inch and MOA (minute of angle).
While the size of 1" remains constant at any distance, the size of MOA changes based on distance. It is common for people to use MOA and Inch interchangeably at a fixed distance of 100 yards, but MOA size changes based on distance while inch is constant.
1" at 100 yards is 1". 1" at 30 yards is still 1".
1 MOA at 100 yards is 1.047". 1 MOA at 30 yards is 0.3141".
Since you are measuring in meters, we have to convert meters to yards to figure MOA.
100 yards is 91.44 meters and 30 meters is 32.8084 yards.
So 1 MOA at 30 meters = 0.3435".
Post meant to be educational, and hopefully helps others to not use two units of measure to be the same thing.
bamaranger
New member
further translation
So, had you shot that size group at 100 yds, it would be sub MOA. However, since said group was shot at appx 30 yds, it is roughly 3 MOA. It would appear your rifle is likely capable of groups, with that ammo, at 100 yds, that would be in the neighborhood of 3".
I would consider that an acceptable degree of accuracy /group given the type of rifle and the import ammo.
But it's not sub MOA.
So, had you shot that size group at 100 yds, it would be sub MOA. However, since said group was shot at appx 30 yds, it is roughly 3 MOA. It would appear your rifle is likely capable of groups, with that ammo, at 100 yds, that would be in the neighborhood of 3".
I would consider that an acceptable degree of accuracy /group given the type of rifle and the import ammo.
But it's not sub MOA.
FrankenMauser
New member
That's fine, as long as you only ever want to consider those first three shots and ignore the rest.
What we have here, is the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.
For more entertainment, check out the video version: Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.
About a year ago, I fired a 15-round group with a customized Marlin .336 .30-30, during testing. I went for 15-rounds, because I wanted a reasonable data set, not the almost useless 3-shots.
It was fantastic!
I fired a one-hole group.
...Except I didn't. I may have put 11 of the rounds through the same hole, for a group size of less than .250", but the other four opened the whole thing up to over 2.5".
We can cherry-pick all day long; but we're lying to ourselves more than we are to other people.
Shoot real groups. Look at the reality of the situation. Go from there.
(Crap ammo is crap.)
What we have here, is the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.
For more entertainment, check out the video version: Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy.
About a year ago, I fired a 15-round group with a customized Marlin .336 .30-30, during testing. I went for 15-rounds, because I wanted a reasonable data set, not the almost useless 3-shots.
It was fantastic!
I fired a one-hole group.
...Except I didn't. I may have put 11 of the rounds through the same hole, for a group size of less than .250", but the other four opened the whole thing up to over 2.5".
We can cherry-pick all day long; but we're lying to ourselves more than we are to other people.
Shoot real groups. Look at the reality of the situation. Go from there.
(Crap ammo is crap.)
Lol...
I'm terrible with irons...But I bet with a full mag from an AK I can get a few holes to touch.
It takes match grade ammo to isolate the accuracy of the hardware from the ammo. Get a box each of Federal Gold Medal Match, and Black Hills. Shoot from a good rest, five shot groups, keep the barrel cool.
Compare to what you get from the Wolf. Now, most of us can't afford to shoot 100 rounds of Black Hills on every range trip...Which is why we handload...
I'm terrible with irons...But I bet with a full mag from an AK I can get a few holes to touch.
It takes match grade ammo to isolate the accuracy of the hardware from the ammo. Get a box each of Federal Gold Medal Match, and Black Hills. Shoot from a good rest, five shot groups, keep the barrel cool.
Compare to what you get from the Wolf. Now, most of us can't afford to shoot 100 rounds of Black Hills on every range trip...Which is why we handload...
FrankenMauser said:
I know that. I was poking fun at the folks who put together one good 3-shot group, out of who knows how many rounds fired, and from that point forward, henceforth and forevermore, they "can shoot sub-MOA groups with that rifle." I typically shoot at least five rounds, and often 10, in my groups. I was checking my shots with binoculars, so I knew I already had that tight 3-shot group before I "messed it up" by firing the 4th and 5th shots.
Even though the PTR 91 barrels are better than any screwed on a military issue service rifle, these things are not capable of MOA or sub MOA as sold. Maybe if the barrel was free floated from the handguard, maybe some other things, this could be made into a target rifle.
I have taken my PTR out to 100 and 200 yards, the five shot groups are probably biased as I would have only kept the best, the 200 yard group is closer to what these rifles are capable of with ball ammunition. About six inches at 200 yards.
100 yards Australian Ball:
100 yards Australian ball:
I have taken my PTR out to 100 and 200 yards, the five shot groups are probably biased as I would have only kept the best, the 200 yard group is closer to what these rifles are capable of with ball ammunition. About six inches at 200 yards.
100 yards Australian Ball:
100 yards Australian ball:
Ok, how about this then:
Yesterday, I wanted to adjust my windage after shooting at 200, 300, and 400 yds. I also wanted to save my last box of better ammo for the steel silhouette at 400 yds. So, I fired Wolf ammo at a target at 100 yds for my windage adjustments. (Yeah I know it's crappy, and it's a different ammo, etc.)
Anyway, I fired one shot (outside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage after that one shot.
Then, I fired the three shots one after the other (inside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage again after those shots.
Next, I fired another single shot (just on the edge of the red square at 3:00). I made one more slight windage adjustment.
And then, I fired the last shot (just inside the 1" bulls-eye at 12:00).
In my mind, those are four separate and distinct shooting events. To me, it is no different than if I had a single sheet of paper with four smaller targets on it: fire one shot, change POA; fire three shots, change POA; fire one shot, change POA, fire last shot.
Yesterday, I wanted to adjust my windage after shooting at 200, 300, and 400 yds. I also wanted to save my last box of better ammo for the steel silhouette at 400 yds. So, I fired Wolf ammo at a target at 100 yds for my windage adjustments. (Yeah I know it's crappy, and it's a different ammo, etc.)
Anyway, I fired one shot (outside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage after that one shot.
Then, I fired the three shots one after the other (inside the black circle at 10:00). I adjusted the windage again after those shots.
Next, I fired another single shot (just on the edge of the red square at 3:00). I made one more slight windage adjustment.
And then, I fired the last shot (just inside the 1" bulls-eye at 12:00).
In my mind, those are four separate and distinct shooting events. To me, it is no different than if I had a single sheet of paper with four smaller targets on it: fire one shot, change POA; fire three shots, change POA; fire one shot, change POA, fire last shot.
When I shoot to see how a barrel or ammo groups, I use a 5 shoot group. With that said, any rifle that will shoot .48 MOA with Wolf ammo in a 5 shoot group is a keeper. I've never found Wolf ammo to be very accurate. And I've tried in a SKS, AK47, .223/5.56 AR, .308 AR, .40 cal and .45 cal. Dirty ammo IMO. But your mileage my vary.