Stupid question

[Dr.Rob]

Ok I know there are no stupid questions, only stupid people.

So tell me, a stupid guy with no 'army training" how the hell do you use those 'military' style post and hole sights? I mean, at 200 yards the front site covers a man sized target, and at night how can you look through that little hole?? I hear all of you guys saying "hits out to 400 meters are no big deal" with iron sights.. well what's the secret???

I grew up shooting with 'buckhorn" sights, at long range you elevate the rear sight, hold the target on top of the front bead and go bang. At really close range you can just point the front sight like a shotgun for snap shooting (I know I can bust a clay pigeon with a marlin 39a)...

I know AK sights are cruddy, but I understand how they work.

I have a 03a3 Springfield that I've tried in vain to get better group than 5-6 inches across, and I can put 3 shotgun slugs in a fist sized group at 100 with buckhorn sights and a rifled choke. I can get a 3 inch group with an AK. (on a good day)

I KNOW the rifle can do it .. and I know I am capable of doing it.

So why can't I???

 

[Jamie Young]

That's why ALL of my Rifles have scopes on them.

Even My FAL! I hardly know anyone that can shoot past 200yds with Iron sights. I had a hell of a time hitting anything at 300yds with my SKS. I've asked myself.... "Why can I shoot 1MOA with a couple of the rifles I own, but not hit anything past 300yds, with Iron Sights?"

 

[Harley Nolden]

would "absolute" consentraton and "focus" on the front sight be part of the problem? Night shootin is different as I know it, but with the l"littl hole" and "buck horn" sights indicates the consentration is not on the alignment of the front and rear sight, with little thought about "focus" on the front sight.

HJN

 

[James K]

In using a peep sight and a front post, the target is centered in the rear peep sight and then the front post placed under it, not covering it. It is the target that is centered, not the top of the post, which is always below the target. (Put another way, the target looks like it is sitting on the front sight like a pumpkin on a fence post.) The rear sight is not really seen; it is out of focus, and the eye automatically centers the target.

(Yes, hitting a man-sized target at 300-400 yards can be done and has been done, many, many times.)

With open sights, it is necessary for the eye to try to keep the rear sight notch and the front sight both in focus, something that is hard to do, especially for older eyes.

I agree that snap shooting is easier with open sights, and many hunters of dangerous game will use nothing else. But over the years, peep sights with large apertures have shown a decided advantage overall for accuracy. The worst combination may be something like the sights on the Model 1903 Springfield or Model 1873 Springfield "trap door", with tiny notches or microscopic apertures at midpoint of the barrel. These are nearly useless under any but ideal conditions.

Jim

 

[Art Eatman]

Dittos for Jim, but I'll add a point.

To get tight groups with iron sights at longer ranges means an ability to hold the same sight picture from shot to shot. If groups are not tight, the shooter is not holding the same sight picture. There is no other causative human factor.

From time to time I've had occasion to watch folks try to duplicate some arrangement. It's startling how many people say that arrangement "A" is identical to arrangement "B"--and it's NOT! Sometimes they're not even close. An example is how to hold one's "bridge" hand when shooting billiards. Show someone; "Make your hand like this."; they'll sorta stick a paw out just any-old-how and look real proud. ? .

That target sitting out there on top of a front sight post has gotta be absolutely centered, every time. It's gotta sit "just barely touching" on top, every time. Then ya gotta center in in the peephole. Uniformity is what does it, every time.

Point to ponder,

Art

 

[Archie]

Jim's right, lacking one little item.....

Don't worry about the rear sight. You just look through the rear sight and focus on the tip of the front sight blade. Your eye will center the tip of the front sight blade in the aperture. Then, as Jim said, put the target on top of tip of the front sight blade; that's a perfect sight picture.

The target will be blurred. Don't focus on the target, focus on the tip of the front sight blade.

Whatever you do, don't pay attention to anything but the tip of the front sight blade.

You will have to figure out how to hold on some targets. For round bullseye targets and such, the six o'clock hold works well. On game animals, the odd bad fruit and enemy soldiers, the six o'clock hold must be "figured". Has been done by many.

The aperture type sight is very accurate. The buckhorn type is faster, but not as accurate. Faster yet are British express sights.

 

[Harley Nolden]

Archie has put it correctly. Keep in mind, old or young, the eye can only focus on one thing at a time, and the brain, (mind) can only concentrate on one thing at a time. That is to produce any kind of consistancy in a "precision situation.

Also, what has been described, in the placement of the front sight on the target,can, (6:00 oclock hold) also true, however, this is not really "point of aim, point if impact" where a center hold would be. It would really depend upon the shooter 6:00 oclock hold or center mass.

HJN

 

[yankytrash]

I was able to run this comparison yesterday. Went shooting with my FAL, M1 Carbine and AK. I've got 5" steel flipping targets set up at varying distances of 75-100 yards in three-target incriments.

Although I tought of my FAL as a tack-driver, I found it was very difficult to aquire the next target without raising my eye, or opening my other eye. Then when I finally aquired the next target, I found it difficult to re-find my sight picture that the last three posters talked about.

Then, I tried it with my AKM, reportedly one of the most inaccurate rifles you can have.
BANG..PING! BANG..PING! BANG..PING! BANG..PING!.....

In my opinion, the 'peep' sight is one of more inefficient, ineffective sights out there. Suprises me that it has lasted as long as it has, especially in military use. The sloppy sight picture, and the time it takes to aquire the correct sight picture consistently, is one of the bigger jokes I've seen, second only to the man that stated "computers make our lives easier".

With an 'open' sight, it's same all the time. All you need to ask yourself is, is the front sight flush with the top of the rear, and is the target sitting on top of all of that? OK, shoot.

With the 'peep', you need to ask yourself, is the front sight the same height in the rear sight as it was last shot? I don't know, let me lose my focus on the target for a second and focus on the rear sight/front sight correlation. OK, it's fine. Shoot? Nope, you lost the the target when you were messing around with the humungus rear hole. Re-claim target and start over. Ughhhhh...
The result is usually an impatient pot-shot by the normal shooter. Maybe a competition shooter, or someone who sleeps with the same rifle every night, finds it much easier without as much thought, but for the normal shooter it's a daunting task.

I've actually stood in front of my grinder once or twice holding the rear sight of my FAL, contamplating whether or not to turn it into a 'open' sight. Instead, I just decided to change the front sight's point of aim in the rear sight lower to compensate for my aiming style.


I'm not doggin you guys that can use the peep sight efficiently, I just thought a better point should be made against statements about the peep being more accurate. If you find them better, more power to ya, but I don't see myself liking them any time soon.

 

[Art Eatman]

yankytrash, not to argue, but shooting tight groups at one given distance on one target is a different purpose than shooting multiple targets at different ranges...

One other point about uniformity and tight groups is that you gotta NEVER cant the rifle! That, of course, is where the horizontal crosshair of a scope gives an advantage--it's a built-in levelling reference.

Art

 

[Jamie Young]

Speaking of Cant

You should have seen the cant on the SAR I I shot today. The guy that owned it couldn't hit a darn thing until he realized the rear sight wasn't level OYE!!! He kept hitting to the left every time he adjusted elevation

 

[yankytrash]

yankytrash, the smartest guy I know D ), said:

I've actually stood in front of my grinder once or twice holding the rear sight of my FAL, contamplating whether or not to turn it into a 'open' sight.

I just got back from shooting again today, with those same guns I mentioned in my last post (I had some quirks to work out in them).

Same Results from the last time. Although I'm happier with the Carbine's performance now that I've got it sighted in again, I'll have to admit the AK won the day again (and I'm not even an AK-fan!).

I really like my FAL though, and I'd like to see her do better for me. So I ask this:

What WOULD the disadvantage be to grinding my rear peep sight into an 'open' sight?

(and the audience GASPS in horror.... . "No, YANKY! Put that grinder down!!!...)

 

[Art Eatman]

yankytrash, where it is written that "Thou shalt not modify things to suit thyself!"?

Try it. If you don't like it, reinstall a stock sight. No big deal. It's your gun, your own nekkid eyebones, your grinder.

But ya gotta report back, okay?

, Art

 

[Quartus]

yanky, the reason the peep and post sight has lasted so long is that it WORKS, and works very well. It's accurate and aquires targets quickly.


Like anything else worthwhile, you have to learn how to use it properly.

 

[C.R.Sam]

I use the two blade rear peep sight on my FAL, big hole or small hole. Big hole for close n quick, small hole for reachin out there.

I have used peep sights on some of my rifles for close to 60 years. They worked for me when youngish and they work for me now. Since shortly after the advent of the aperture rear sight, few if any, serious marksmen have used anything else in events that did not allow optics.

A classic example of the precision obtainable using a peep rear sight was demonstrated a few years ago. Intl womans smallbore rifle competition, score 400 40X. AnnMarie Pfiffner. She can be tied but not beaten.

For some who have old eyes, the ghost ring rear sight works well on pistols, rifles and shotguns. Ghost ring is just a hip term for peep sight....with large aperture.

Sam

 

[JohnKSa]

Two problems I've seen with peep sights

1. Shooters.

People who are used to carefully aligning everything like you do with typical open sights try to do the same with a peep with frustrating results. You shouldn't really think about aligning the post in the center of the aperture, only focus on making sure that the target is sitting on the center of the post of the front sight. The centering of the post happens automatically once you get the hang of things. Also, leave both eyes open. Peep sights are FAST, but not if you try to treat them like open sights. Just find the front post, put it where you want it and touch off the shot. Don't spend time agonizing over whether the post is perfectly centered in the aperture--it will be. If you are taking LONGER to line up a shot with a peep sight than with open sights you're doing it wrong. OR...

2. Eye problems.

Some types of eye problems, or eye correction problems (glasses/contacts/etc.) can cause the aperture to appear to be ragged or irregularly shaped. That ruins the "automatic centering" feature that is the key to shooting a peep sight well. I was completely unable to shoot aperture sights until I switched from hard contacts to soft contacts. I've talked to my optometrist about the problem and he thinks that my hard contacts may have been slightly warped.

 

[yankytrash]

CR - Where'd you get that small-hole peep for your FAL? That's my biggest problem - the peep-hole on the FAL is too big. For myself, I've never had much use for the large-hole/small-hole flip sight on my AR. Actually, I have a small-hole/small-hole on it now.

As for ease of use and getting comfortable with the use of large-hole, well.... try an experiment - get a collection of rifles together with large peeps, small peeps, and open sights. Bring them all to the range at once, and try one mag at a time from each gun at multiple targets at different ranges. You might see what I mean.

Although I'm normally comfortable with my FAL, when I set up this new target scheme and was able to compare the FAL sight's target aquisition performance with other guns' sights' capabilties, it was, to say the least, slow and clumsy.

Tried shootin with both eyes open. Fine for pistol work, but I can't do much with two eyes on a peep on a rifle. Both my eyes are open until I start the second stage of pull on the trigger, then my second eye has to close. I'm workin on it, but old habits are hard to break.


I think I'm gonna take ART up on that offer of modifying my gun for my needs. I'll just blame it on Art if I mess it up.

 

[Dr.Rob]

"That target sitting out there on top of a front sight post has gotta be absolutely centered, every time. It's gotta sit "just barely touching" on top, every time. Then ya gotta center in in the peephole. Uniformity is what does it, every time. "

Well thats exactly how I use buckhorn sights, only the rear sight is lined up showing me I'm level.

Some one else noted this may be harder to learn with glasses.. well I wear glasses so maybe that's my problem

I always shoot with both eyes open, even with a scope if I can help it.

Maybe I should just sign up for one of those CMP courses.

I appreciate all the advice I'm hearing, and a lot of it I've heard before, guess I need me some of that 'hands on' instruction.

"Express sights" are my favorite, esp. with a full quarter rib. But those are designed for close up work at moving targets. I can do that.

I guess my point is.. darn it I can't get them *Peep* sights to shoot as well as I can buckhorns. Maybe I can just put buckhorns on all my rifles (gasp).

haha can you imagine an M1 Garand with a v-notch and a brass bead??

 

[Morgan]

Hey, Rob.

Give me a ring, and I'll lend you my AR. With both large and small aperture sights I can't help but hit what I aim at with it - it just seems natural. Maybe its just the size of the aperture or the shape of the post...

 

[Dr.Rob]

at 'defensive range ' like we normally shoot its not a big deal. I'm just wondering about longer range stuff.

Are you shooting at the next IDPA match?

 

[Art Eatman]

Dr. Rob, if YOUR sights let you do what YOU want, it seems to me you're doing just fine. From past postings, it sounds as though you're more of a hunter/plinker than a target shooter. (?)

From reading between the lines, if punching paper with iron sights is coming to be of interest to you, I'd say it's like taking up any new game--there's a new set of requirements.

, Art