Strongly considering first handgun - thoughts, please.

[pathdoc]

Choices seem to be boiling down to XDm vs. M&P. in 9mm Parabellum (Luger) right now.

First of all, I am in Canada, so 10-shot magazine maximum. Also, carry/self-defence considerations don't enter into the equation.

Second, calibre - 9mm is ballistically adequate for the purposes I have in mind for it, and I'm not considering other calibres for now (.357 Mag in a revolver and/or .45 ACP in an auto are future considerations).

I would be looking at reloading, with both commercially bought and home-cast projectiles.

I'm interested in both the ups and downs that owners of these two pistols have experienced, which I can weigh up to make a final decision (which will be influenced by price & whatever deals on extras I can get locally). I'd particularly welcome comments from those who own either or both AND who reload for them.

I am (unfortunately!) not really in a position to "try before I buy", but I have shot various 9mm pistols before and have experienced no obvious problems coping with the recoil and hitting the target at short range. Both handguns point well in my hand and the sights align nicely, which ought to be half the battle - the rest will be a matter of practice.

I will take into consideration those who have tried both and found no joy in either, and who consequently wish to suggest alternatives, but no recommendations for Glocks, please - I'm sure they're great guns and I don't want to disparage them, but I have shot the Gen 1 and did not like its ergonomics or sights, and the Gen 4 feels no better to my hand and eye.

 

[Targa]

I do not have much to offer you here, I don't reload and I haven't fired a XDM. I do have a full size M&P 9 and my only recommendation would be to look at the compact version of it. IMO the only advantage the full size has over the compact is capacity but since you are limited to 10 rounds my money would go to the M&P 9c. For me it shoots nearly as well and the size is more versatile. Like I said, this is just my .02 cents.

 

[BigBL87]

I'm curious, if self defense and carry aren't considerations, what are your planned uses. If you're looking at competition/target shooting, there are better choices out there for that use.

 

[Big4Freedom]

Yeah, if you're set on those two, probably compact sw mp, or shield, or subcompact Springfield. To get your full capacity allowed, I'd probably do 9mm, or.40 for more caliber.

Ruger lc9s pro is worth handling before you buy. Decent capacity in 9mm and simple to carry, great shooter. I wouldn't carry any Springfield or sw, other than shield, due to size. That's just my preference tho. Some people carry really large guns, which is great if you're one of them who can. Shield not bad option either and good carry size.

 

[dyl]

Pathdoc,

Do you have an interest in Pathology? Let me compare the two using histology analogies. Joking, that would be a headache.

There are 2 things people tend to notice about the M&P line in general.

1) The trigger. The take-up before the breaking point can feel a little gritty as it comes from the factory. This is due to an uneven surface on the trigger bar interfacing with a sharp edge on the striker block plunger. Users can smooth out the trigger bar on their own or an aftermarket Apex part (Ultimate Striker Block) eliminates this. To really smooth out the striker block on your own you would need a buffing wheel so most buy the aftermarket part. Takeup characteristic does *not matter in terms of accuracy as it is before the trigger breaking point, but it is some people's pet peeve. I didn't purchase a smooth striker block until it coincidentally came in another kit I bought.

The trigger breaking characteristic is average for a stock striker fired pistol with resistance occurring over a longer (less "crisp") distance than say a single action 1911 or revolver. This can be altered a little by the user or a smith filing on the sear if he knows what he is doing. The trigger breaking point can also be adjusted to occur more forward during the trigger stroke or towards the rear by bending or opening the "shepherds hook" on the trigger bar within limits - limits dictated by the timing of the trigger bar to deactivate the striker block. Too far forward would be like attempting to stand up before fully exiting your vehicle and the striker would not be allowed to pass forward to strike the round. Altering the "shepherds hook" also alters the degree of overtravel. If you hate overtravel after a trigger breaks, move the trigger breaking point to the rear.

Most who feel the need to tinker purchase Apex tactical parts. Or they do their own "Burwell Trigger Job" - tutorial posted online by Dan Burwell himself. I did my own, then added a kit later out of curiosity. Apex Tactical has several aftermarket trigger kits that more drastically change the trigger characteristics which include a sear, a different trigger (straight vs non-segmented curved, polymer or aluminum) aftermarket springs, striker block. The user keeps his own trigger bar. I've installed the Apex Forward Set Sear trigger kit - not out of necessity but for an experiment after years of the pistol performing very nicely. It moved the breaking point forward (some like more towards the rear) and limits pretravel and overtravel, the trigger break is crisp for a striker fired pistol. I've still yet to wring it out completely to make opinions.

Trigger reset is also something people complain about. It is also non-essential to accurate shooting, and some advocate *not consciously trying to feel or hear the trigger reset after a shot, but rather practice to let your trigger out to a learned distance after a shot. In any case the Apex RAM for older M&P's fixes this.

S&W has made rolling changes over the years. If you get a relatively new model made within the last 3 years (estimate), the trigger reset will be more prominent as the slide stop bar has been altered to make for a snappier reset, and the Apex Reset Assist Mechanism adds nothing. I never purchased one, didn't feel a need.

2) grip. In my opinion, the M&P line has more of an oval cross-section than any pistol I've fired before. Typically with double stacks the corners of the grip are rounded but the result is still a rectangular cross-section over all. It has user-changeable backstraps - I am unsure if the XDm line has this. Most find what they shoot best with as the backstrap does change the distance to the trigger - then they stick with that backstrap. Some decided to learn a configuration based on purpose - thinnest backstrap for carry, wider for more gripping surface. Spare backstraps can be purchased and altered/stippled depending on if you tinker.
I called and asked S&W for a couple magazine base plates and they sent them free (I was having other work done too) and I stippled them for more grip.

3) customer service. I've heard great things about Springfield Armory's customer service. I've also experienced great things with S&W. I would look to see if there is a service center in Canada. My concern would be that Springfield armory is a smaller company and their support may not reach as far and wide.

No modifications really need to be done to the M&P line, but I am a tinkerer and that is part of the hobby for me so I appreciate the aftermarket support.

I have reloaded both 40 cal and 9mm (conversion barrel) for my M&P and there are no quirks, it shoots well with plated, jacketed, and lead.

If you cannot "try before you buy" as in rent at a range - perhaps you could find a store that would at least let you handle the ones behind the counter?

Other than what I've mentioned above, my impression of performance of both lines of pistols is that they both do well. I think you will have a great shooter whichever you pick. At a brief glance it looks Springer Precision provides aftermarket support for XD's so this makes your choice even easier/harder depending on where you're leaning

 

[pathdoc]

Intended use is general plinking and IPSC. Compact and subcompact models run afoul of barrel length limitations here and are out. There may be better out there but one has to start somewhere. Better, more specialised guns can follow later.


Dyl, I'm a specialist pathologist, hence the moniker. Grip felt good in store for both xdm and m&p. Trigger is something that only shooting with it will really sort out. Dry firing felt ok for someone whose previous experience is .303 Lee Enfield and Savage Axis 2 with accu-trigger but of course the real thing is another matter.

Shop owner indicates logistics for parts are not as good for XDm here. Something else to bear in mind.

 

[BigBL87]

If you're concerned more about accuracy (based on your uses), you might consider looking at something in the CZ-75 family. There are a number of low capacity options, such as this:

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-sp-01-9mm-black-3-dot-sights-10-rd-mags/

Not that the others can't be accurate, but CZ75's are known for being very accurate in part due to the design of the slide riding inside the frame instead of outside

Both of the options you have are good guns, just tossing out another option.

 

[fire4606]

Path,

I've got two M&P's one is a 5" 9mm the other a 4" 45 acp, and I've owned a few others as well. The grittyness in the triggers I've not noticed as much in the newer versions, just bought a new one a month ago and it was not gritty.

The ones that had this in the past smoothed out on their own, still the stock trigger is not my favorite so I replace the sear with an Apex hard sear in my pistols and like that feel very much.

I reload for both and have never had any problems.

 

[cslinger]

Pick the one with better support/mags/parts etc in Canada. Both have proven themselves good guns. He xd has a much better trigger IMO.

 

[tallball]

Have you been to a gunshow or something similar where you could handle dozens of different models one right after the other?

There are many good models of 9mm pistols that would do what you want this to do. You have picked two good ones. You couldn't go wrong with either one. But there may be one out there that feels even better in your hand.

 

[dyl]

Being a first pistol I think you're keeping a great perspective and have settled on some good options.

You could search to see what the most popular pistols of IPSC are if you're really into it. But unless you've tried it, you may want to wait to see if you like it before investing. Ditto for other equipment involved in competing. I've just started IDPA and while a little more gear could help it's not my limiting factor yet.

For me it takes about half a year at least(depending on how much time i can spend with it) to get the know the pistol. And that's just regarding my interface to the pistol, usually I haven't pushed it to my limits at the range because there are plenty of things to experiment with. No "wrong" choice here unless a physical dimension issue such as - cannot reach the mag release (or slide release) on X pistol, but can on the other. Even then some choose to live with and accommodate quirks if they like the pistol overall.

I haven't had any parts break. Most pistol shooters replace their recoil spring eventually. No set number, a reasonable medium is 5,000 rounds. For small pocket pistols some manufacturers will stipulate sooner replacement. I don't think you'll have any trouble finding a replacement recoil spring with either model.

 

[pilpens]

I have both an Xdm (3.8 full grip) and M&P FS in 9mm. I do not really like either one.
The M&P trigger is OK with aftermarket parts from APEX (sear & springs).
The Xdm trigger is OK.
The Xdm feels smaller than the M&P but M&P feels better in my hands. Also, felt recoil seems less with the M&P.
======
I also have a glock 34. Trigger is nicer after some tweaking (springs and trigger bar work). The grip angle takes some getting used to. Now, I am more consistent with it than my Xdm or M&P. Also, get an aftermarket barrel with full case support if reloading for peace of mind.
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Recommendations:
Have you looked at 5" 1911 9mm. It is the 9mm I enjoy the most at the range. This is what I would recommend for a "range" pistol.
Another one to consider is a CZ 75/85 (also, check out the CZ shadow pistols).
Also, Walther PPQ M2.

 

[mrdaputer]

I owned both then sold them both I like the Walthers PPQ. Careful if you hold one you just might not want to let go

 

[BigJimP]

I've fired both quite a bit ....buddies have some of each ....and I don't think there is a big enough difference in either one mechanically to make it difference. My buddies reload for both ...no issues there ( but its the quality of the reloads that is the primary issue with most guns )...

I think it comes down to what fits your hands the best ( width, grip angle, can you reach all the controls without moving your grip, etc )...and you can tell a lot about the trigger by dry firing it in a shop...( how it breaks, how it resets, how much slack or wobble there is in the feel of the trigger...)...

If it were me - and I had to choose between the two models - I'd go with the XD ...

 

[marine6680]

Both are comfortable and easy shooting.

The XD trigger is better out of the box. An apex kit makes the S&W trigger one of the best.

For target shooting the apex kit in a S&W is very good... But it's no where near the level of a good 1911.

But my S&W with Apex kit is one of my favorite pistols. Followed closely by my VP9.

My Sig 320 is nice too, and it's modularity would be handy for you. If it's available that is.

 

[TomADC]

Sig SP2022 order the CA version 10 round magazines.

 

[pathdoc]

Pilpens: I have handled 1911s and they are beautiful to grip with a nice sight picture. However, the one I most recently handled is only a nine-shooter (so to speak) and I tend to have problems with the grip safety (not gripping it quite right, thus producing unwitting FTF). Also, somewhat muzzle-heavy. I think I'll kick that one down the road a little and save the 1911 platform for .45ACP.

BigJimP, your opinion regarding the XD series is noted, and all else being equal I'd probably lean in that direction too - however, both the price and spare parts logistics appear to favour the M&P where I am.

marine6680 - I couldn't tell a practical difference between the triggers, inasmuch as neither felt particularly terrible. I suspect my sense of what constitutes a good trigger in a handgun will only develop after a few hundred rounds downrange. My sense of what constitutes a good trigger in a rifle is already well established, but it's a different kettle of fish and I'm not as yet sure how well the desirable characteristics carry across from one to the other.

Pilpens and BigBL87 - I have shot the CZ75 on one occasion and liked it (a lot); I got to play at IPSC for ten carefully supervised rounds and only one out of ten shots failed to go where I wanted it (C vs A zone hit). This inspires confidence. However, the price is significantly higher in my neck of the woods. If I get into serious competition I can probably justify it; until then, I think this'll be another for the wishlist.

Thanks a lot for all inputs so far. There are good guns and better guns, but the better guns are significantly more costly guns and for a first purchase I feel happier getting a less expensive but still good gun. I'm trying to bear in mind that as well as the gun itself, there are extra magazines, holsters (for competition work) etc. to think about, and these have to be figured into the dollar cost too. I'm a military aviation & warship enthusiast among my other interests, and from my reading I have learned all too well that the history of botched or unsatisfying weapon system procurements is the history of failing to consider everything you needed from the start.

The important part for me here is confirming that the weapon at the core of my "system" is a sound choice, even if it's not the best ("the best is the enemy of good enough"). Reading between the lines, I'm getting the picture that the only thing some of you are finding wrong with the M&P and/or XDm comes down to individual preference and not a deep flaw in the design or execution.

 

[ritepath]

Our new pathologist started last week...

Anyway....Is the CZ 75 allowed? You may also want to consider the 5" M&P pro for competition.

I really like 9mm because my cast lead goes further and powder last longer. Manufactured bullets of course are also less expensive.

 

[marine6680]

As far as triggers... What is true for a rifle is pretty much true for a pistol.

You want a smooth pull, with a clean and well defined break. Pull weight is dependent on intended use, with pulls around 3-4lb not being bad for a striker pistol and competitive use. Trigger pull will be longer than a rifle usually, depending on trigger and action type.


If you have issues with the grip safety on a 1911, you may find you have the same problem with a XD. So barring testing beforehand, it may not be the best bet.


I really liked my XD, and I like my friend's XD... But I have quickly grown to love my M&P... I put an Apex FSS kit in it, with the carry Springs, and have a very smooth and crisp pull of 5.5lb. The competition springs make the trigger break around 4lb or a bit less. Very similar in feel to a decent 1911 trigger, and depending on how you set it up, slightly more overtravel or more take up.

I set mine up to have take up and just a little over travel, which I feel is best for my shooting.

A truly awesome trigger setup in my opinion. The competition springs would work great for your uses.


The 5 inch Pro model adds a bit to the price but is better in the trigger department than stock, though not apex good. There are some tweaks and benefits over the standard M&P, but weather the benefits are worth the price bump is up to you.

Performance center models are good too, but still not quite there in the trigger, but like the pro models, have other benefits over standard M&Ps

 

[DanTSX]

You should get a Glock 19.