strange 44spl testing results....

[Shadow9mm]

So I bought a Henry 44mag/44spl lever gun, 20in barrel. Ran through the manuals, put some loads together. Had some VERY odd results.

Only did 3 round groups for the initial workup to conserve primers and powders. Was just trying to get a rough idea of how things were going to work. Goal was between 1,000 and 1,100 fps to keep it subsonic.

Starline 44SPL Brass
240g Hornady XTP
Winchester Large pistol primers (for standard OR magnum loads)
Firm crimp

Power Pistol
6.6g, avg 773, SD 21, ES 42
7.1g, avg 860, SD 46.7, ES 93
7.6g, avg 980, SD 20.13, ES 40

CFE Pistol
5.7 492 (only got 1 reading, not sure what happened)
6.2 Avg 572, SD 88.79, ES 177
6.7Avg 770, SD 50.24, ES 92

HP-38 (AKA W-231)
5.2 avg 527, sd 55.63, es111
5.7 avg 629, sd 24.25, es 48

Really expected these to perform better. These loads all showed around a 790fps to 850fps range out of a 6 to 7in pistol barrel. Not sure why they
performed so poorly in the rifle.

I seriously thought I had squibs with the CFE Pistol, it felt and sounded like a sub sonic 22LR. But I got chronograph readings and could see light down the barrel. I hoped this would perform the best as this was the slowest burning powder I tried.

I was also concerned I was having chronograph errors due to the low velocities and the sun being low in the sky. However after each string I fired one 44 mag and it was giving me correct velocities.

 

[lugerstew]

I have always had good results in 44mag with H110, myself, I would never underload my 44mag with 44special rounds,, I dont see the point to reduce a magnum pistol like this one to anything less. I can not explain your results, but with those powders in 44mag with same bullet, I have had great results.

 

[Shadow9mm]

lugerstew

The 44 specials feed more reliably than some of the 44 mags in the lever gun. We were also trying to stay subsonic, in the 1000-1100fps range which is a bit harder to do with the 20in barrel. Starting with the 44spl made more sense to me than down loading 44 mag.

I did also find some Sierra data for a 240g jacketed SP with H110, Start 13.4, Max 14.8g. Will probably test this load next time we get out. Should have enough barrel to make it worth while.

 

[rclark]

Those are larger extreme spreads than I'd expect for those powders. I've not tested with a Rifle though.

From my testing with 240g SWC (don't shoot jacketed) with Ruger .44 Special Flattop 5 1/2" test gun:

All my tests are minimum 15 shot samples. CCI standard primers.

Power Pistol:l ES under 50fps in all tests.
W-231: ES under 32fps in all tests.
CFE Pistol: ES under 34fps in all tests. Best load was 7.5gr

Note Power Pistol likes a bit warmer load. I started at 8.0gr for my testing. Did you weigh each powder charge? Just a thought.

 

[Shadow9mm]

Those are larger extreme spreads than I'd expect for those powders. I've not tested with a Rifle though.

From my testing with 240g SWC (don't shoot jacketed) with Ruger .44 Special Flattop 5 1/2" test gun:

All my tests are minimum 15 shot samples. CCI standard primers.

Power Pistol:l ES under 50fps in all tests.
W-231: ES under 32fps in all tests.
CFE Pistol: ES under 34fps in all tests. Best load was 7.5gr

Note Power Pistol likes a bit warmer load. I started at 8.0gr for my testing. Did you weigh each powder charge? Just a thought.

Yes each charge was weighed out, not thrown.

Only primers I have are the winchesters, marked for standard or magnum loads. Got 500 from a good friend to get started. Managed to order 2000 from brownells the other day, cci large pistol, but I'm not counting them till they actually get here.

I agree, for what I consider to be reliable data I generally prefer 10 to 15 round tests. However I'm new to 44mag and spl, and have limited supplies. Today was just to get a rough ball park on how the powders I had on hand performed to figure out what direction to go. Next outing I will be testing power pistol again for accuracy and consistency. As well as some h110 loads.

On a side note. How did you come to 7.5g of cfe pistol? Hodgdon shows a max of 6.6 with a lswc.low.

Thinking about pushing up towards 8.0 of pp. Gonna double check the brass tomorrow. It is a 44mag chamber so it can take the pressure as long as I don't split the brass. But that might get me right where I'm wanting to be.

 

[zeke]

Gonna guess the loads are low enough that they are slowing down before leaving barrel? In the pistol barrel they may still be accelerating in the short barrel? Some data sheets on 44 specials are very low considering the firearms the loads might get used in. Looks like you're already looking at slower or more powder.

 

[ocharry]

shadow.. when i was cowboy shooting i used 44's and i was loading a special load in special starline brass with a 200gr rnfp lead bullet.....it shot really well in both pistols and my marlin 44 cowboy

i was using hodgden universal...im thinking around 6gr maybe 6.2...you should check it out if you can find the powder...nice load...iirc it was giving me around 875-925fps out of the pistols and i think around 1100 out of the rifle, maybe a little less on the rifle but man the marlin really liked the load...the marlin cowboy has a 24" barrel

check that powder out in your quest for 44 special loads

i was using clays for the 38 special loads too with a 125gr lead bullet man it was a *****cat load that got it done too

maybe i have helped out some

ocharry

 

[reddog81]

7.6 Power Pistol looks decent. Everything else is just too light. It's a definite possibility that those starting loads are decelerating before leaving the barrel

 

[ballardw]

With the note about only one reading I might suggest confirming the set up of the chronograph. Something might have slipped out of alignment.

 

[gwpercle]

It's probably a combination of the hard jacketed bullet and long 20" barrel .
The Power Pistol loads look about right ...both the charge and velocity .

The other two powders ...not so , I'm thinking they might be too fast , running out of steam before they can exit the barrel ...the jacketed bullets start to slow down .

Suggestions:
Try a slower powder something like Unique , Acc.#5 , Acc #7 or something in the mid burning range . The extended burn time will help get the bullet down the barrel .
Try Coated or Cast lead bullets ...they go down the barrel easier and faster .
Tilt the rifle's muzzel up , like a 45 degree angle , before each shot ...this makes the powder go to the rear of the case and helps ingnition .

Some powders are just too fast burning for rifles with long barrels and hard Jacketed bullets ... a 6" handgun barrel is a whole other ball game .
Gary

 

[totaldla]

What is the goal?
Are you trying to make CAS loads? If so, you need cast bullets.
Are you trying to make sub-sonic pkinkers? If so then you need to be using faster powders(bullseye speed range) and cast bullets.
Are you trying to make hunting loads? Then you need to be using powders like AA9,2400,Enforcer,H110/296, etc.

Also, where did you get your load data?

 

[Jim Watson]

His loads are in Hodgdon and Alliant book range for .44 SPECIAL.

I am with zeke, I think you have just run out of expansion ratio with CFEP and HP38.
I would either load PP, try Something Else, go to Magnums, go to Keith Special overloads; depending on the end use.

 

[44 AMP]

I did also find some Sierra data for a 240g jacketed SP with H110, Start 13.4, Max 14.8g. Will probably test this load next time we get out. Should have enough barrel to make it worth while.

I don't have that data, but I would suggest doing some research and cross referencing, nothing I have, (going back to 1970) shows a .44 Mag load with H110 that is that LIGHT.

H110 is known for not playing nice when underloaded. Also during the 70s-80s there were 3 different identified burning rates with different batches of H110 on the market. Which was one of the reasons I never got into that powder very much. I feel confident that current data and current powder is fine together.

I did find one book, Speer #8 (1970) that listed 14gr start load and 16gr max. Everything newer lists start loads in the 20gr range or some at 22gr for the 240gr slug.

13-14gr H110 is a load for a .357 mag with a 158jacketed bullet. If its not just a typo, I'd check carefully, seems to me you got the data mixed up.

 

[Jim Watson]

He's in .44 Special brass. Hodgdon doesn't show anything that slow in .44 Special, who knows where it came from.

 

[FrankenMauser]

Your loads are light enough that bore friction is slowing the projectiles down before they exit the muzzle.
Bump the charges slowly. You'll see a sudden spike in velocity, when the efficiency of the expansion ratio matches bore length, and the bullets are no longer in deceleration when exiting the muzzle.

 

[44 AMP]

I'd say go with 6gr Unique and see what you get from the carbine.

Really fast powders don't gain much, if anything from a carbine length barrel, particularly with light charges.

Unique is slow enough to get some extra boost, and 6gr shows about 800fps from a pistol so likely would still be subsonic even with some gain from the carbine barrel.

None of my data shows any H110 loads in .44 Special, but my library is hardly all inclusive...

 

[Shadow9mm]

I considered unique, However Power Pistol and CFE Pistol were both slower burning on the burn rate chart. Figured they would do better.

I have the electronic edition of the sierra manual as an app on my phone. it shows 44spl with a 240g semi jacketed soft point, with a similar bullet profile and crimp location as the XTP. H110 start of 13.4g, Max of 14.8g.

I scoured my other manuals, did not find H110 listed with 44spl anywhere else. Paper copies of Lee, Lyman, Speer. Digital copy of Hornady. Online Hodgdon. But Sierra had data for it. I would post a screen shot, but the whole copyrighted materials issue....

 

[Shadow9mm]

What is the goal?
Are you trying to make CAS loads? If so, you need cast bullets.
Are you trying to make sub-sonic pkinkers? If so then you need to be using faster powders(bullseye speed range) and cast bullets.
Are you trying to make hunting loads? Then you need to be using powders like AA9,2400,Enforcer,H110/296, etc.

Also, where did you get your load data?

Goal is a sub sonic hunting load for my son. 44spl is legal here for deer, and with the brush 25-75yd shots are common. Trying to get a 240g xtp into the 1000 to 1100fps range.

I tried the powders I did because that is what I already had on hand for 9mm and 38/357. Figured I would see if the slower 9mm and 38/357 powders I had would get me anywhere close. Not ruling out other powders, just wanted to see if I could avoid stocking another powder.

I usually cross reference several sources. I checked the following for this workup.
Lee, hard copy
Speer, Hard Copy
Lyman, Hard Copy
Hornady, Digital edition
Sierra, Digital edition
Hodgdon's website
Alliant's website

 

[Shadow9mm]

It's probably a combination of the hard jacketed bullet and long 20" barrel .
The Power Pistol loads look about right ...both the charge and velocity .

The other two powders ...not so , I'm thinking they might be too fast , running out of steam before they can exit the barrel ...the jacketed bullets start to slow down .

Suggestions:
Try a slower powder something like Unique , Acc.#5 , Acc #7 or something in the mid burning range . The extended burn time will help get the bullet down the barrel .
Try Coated or Cast lead bullets ...they go down the barrel easier and faster .
Tilt the rifle's muzzel up , like a 45 degree angle , before each shot ...this makes the powder go to the rear of the case and helps ingnition .

Some powders are just too fast burning for rifles with long barrels and hard Jacketed bullets ... a 6" handgun barrel is a whole other ball game .
Gary

according to the burn rate chart Acc#5 is slower than power pistol, but faster than CFE Pistol. no real slow down. I have some Acc. #7 but was unable to find any 44spl loads for it.

 

[stinkeypete]

Ideas:
With a jacketed bullet or hard cast, you need enough “bang” to obdurate the back of the bullet (mash it tight in the bore to get a good gas seal.)

When loading “plinkers” (800 fps or so) soft cast lead bullets are your friend. Often, bulk cast bullets are harder than optimal for that use as they survive rough handling and shipping better. Don’t be afraid of cast bullets, but be aware that some bulk cast are not as good as some made by “the little guys.”

You dont want H110 unless you’re making stout loads. It needs pressure to become “stable.”

I would be using Unique powder and cast bullets.

Lead is “more slippery” than copper.