Stoner or HK?

[18908148]

I browsing at a gun store and saw a REAL nice stoner set up for comatition shooting. Heavy barrel 32 scope and haris bipod. This ONLY cost 3 grand. I saw a used HK 91 with haris pod and extra preban mags and scope for 2300.
looking at the 308's which would be the better deal?

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Depends on a lot of variables, what kind of scope, what condition are the rifles in, is it an actual H&K or aftermarket, pre or post HK, etc.. Also depends on what you want it for. An Armalite AR 10 or Springfield M1A might well be a better buy depending on your wants/desires. I would rate either as better buys, they bolth use more redialy available magazines, bolth are cheaper, AR 10 is probably on par with Stoner (or nearly so) and the M1A is a better shooter than the 91 and a good bit cheaper as well. I could go on but you should define your objectives first.

 

[George Hill]

HK

NEXT QUESTION!

 

[18908148]

Accually I am looking for a rifle that could reach out and accurately touch (varmites or large game) at a distance of 600yds to about 1100 yds. I realize most 308 rounds loose there potancy at a little over 600yds but I have read that you can make the round a little hotter and be easily accurate out around 1000yds.

 

[DblTap]

I was facing the same question. The HK91 that I found was in 98% condition with no accessories other than one used magazine and was going for $2600.

I found a Stoner SR-25 Match, Springfield Generation 2 optics (4.5 x 14 with sunshade and range finding reticle), 2 twenty round original KMC magazines, Harris bipod and gun case for $2700 (including $100 for shipping and insurance).

When talking to the HK distributor, he asked the same type of questions that Jake98c/11b mentioned in the above posting. What was I going to do with the rifle? Or put another way, what did I want the rifle to do? The HK91 is from a battle rifle background. If it hits an inch or two off, so what, it still got the "enemy" in the center of mass, objective met. If I wanted to shoot competition where 2 inches off is going to cost you big time, I'd go with the Stoner. For three grand, it had better be the Match version and come with a bunch of accessories, preferrable top shelf optics that have the ability to compensate for bullet drop on the .308 168 gn round.

A couple of other things to remember, magazines are a different story for these two rifles. Stoner mags are at least $100 each, when you can find them. HK mags are around $35 (used and beaten up) to $65 (new in plastic wrap).

Ammunition. Both rifles will shoot almost any .308, but if you want bullet holes that touch each other at 200 yards, then your looking at Federal Gold Match ammunition for the Stoner at $18 for 20 rounds, retail pricing.

Personally, I shoot competition and bought the Stoner and have been delighted. Let us know what you decide and how it shoots.

For more information on the Stoner, check out
http://www.biggerhammer.net/stoner/wwwboard/index.html

DblTap

PS: I posted a message in the "Reports from the Range" section of this board regarding my experience with the SR-25. Might be helpful reading.

 

[Kernel]

Neither. IMHO get a M1A if you want accuracy. Get a FAL is you want a .308 bullet hose. You can get both for what they want for a Stoner or H&K. -- Kernel (M1A & FAL owner)

 

[Alan B]

Get a M1A for $2300 you can get a Springfield Armory Super match 10, 20 round USGI mags a case of ammo and have enough left to go out on the town for the night. I have seen some NM M1As assembled from M14 USGI parts sets that shoot sub 1 inch MOA at 100 yards for around $1400

 

[Destructo6]

Of those two choices, the HK without a doubt. There are a lot of parts still floating around for them and it's a battle proven design.

Otherwise, if I was looking for a 7.62x51 battle rifle, I'd go with a FAL.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Correct me if i'm wrong... but depending on the match DCM hipower or other similar) aren't MOST still won with a match grade M14/M1a??

take a Springfield "loaded" package and use the rest of the $$ on acessories and a shepard scope.

$3k seems like an awful lot of money... and at 600+ (in sniper terms anyway) that seems to be BOLT ACTION TERRITORY. Read up on long range shooting in the VARMINT HUNTER magazine.

good luck and good shooting,

Dr.Rob

 

[18908148]

Ok Dr Rob, question for you, and anyone esle- if you were going to recommend a bolt action gun, 308 calibler,along with a scope and bipod, what would they all be? and at what $$

and how much better would it shoot persay than either the stoner or the HK -in otherwords would the point of impact be that much farther off w/bolt than w/HK or stoner

[This message has been edited by 18908148 (edited December 01, 1999).]

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

Boy, this thing grew into a monster in short order. First let me say George you ignorant slut, who did you sleep with to get this job. Besides I thought you sold your H&K stuff.
First things first, with the price listed I was afraid the HK 91 was not a true german gun, could be Portugese, Greek, US, pre or post ban etc.. A H&K sold here for 3200.00 recently with several accessories.
As to loading the 308 hotter, you could possibly get away with this in a bolt gun but that is generally a bad idea in an auto. The newer 175 gr bullets have better ballistics farther out but I havent any experience with them (and little with shooting past 600 yds anyway).
If you are looking for an investment piece and that was a true H&K, buy it. If you want a shooter, look elsewhere. Somewhere arround here I wrote a long post comparing the HK, M1A and FN-FAL in response to someones question, find that and it will show my views on those. I would be happy to continue the conversation if you would like, I'd just rather avoid retyping it.
As to the bolt gun, if you are interested in long range (past 600) I would reccomend tthe 300 win mag. Range estimation is the dominant factor past 600 yards with the 308 but, as I understand it, the 300 is more forgiving. Second to range estimation is wind drift. The 300 will handle heavier bullets, heavier bullets won't drift as bad.
What bolt action to buy is not an easy question and I do not claim any expertise here but.....
If you have to ask the question you would probably be best served with the Remington Sendero. It is a good value and any riflesmith can do good things for you and it won't tear your wallet off your ass like a custom gun will. Most serious sniper rifles are built up on remington actions, as a result more parts and accessories are available (at lower prices) for the Remington than most others and if, in the long run, you decide to get out of the long range rifle buisness it will probably be easier to unload than other guns. Another cost effective alternative is the Savage 110T in 300. In some respects the Savage hase some advantages, the way the gun is headspaced is supposed to be better and the way the bolts locking lugs engage keeps them from putting uneven pressure on the action. That last little bit isn't explained clearly but I hope someone can explain it in clear english. I would like to point out that my only personal experience with Savage centerfire rifles is with the mod 99 lever action. Possibly the best lever action rifke ever produced. I am only relating what I have heard from others I respect about the 110T.

By the way George, that was sarcasm. Think about it and you may remember me.

 

[George Hill]

Jake?
Hmmm... I know a couple - You the Virginian Jake often found in shooting ranges off the Midlothian Turnpike?
Send me an email...

Yeah - I sold the Hecklers in favor of others. Thanks for rubbing it in. I will get another HK - I am already planning on it. A USP .45 Compact - with the Wolf Springs to handle .45 Super. But thats another story.

Between the options given in the initial post on this thread - the choice is CLEARLY the HK. It is less cash - and comes with the goodies. So the money saved can be used for things like AMMO.

About the Savage rifle - I think your trying to say that it has a reciever as solid as a tank. And it is... but I would rather have the Remington. The Remington is a more universal rifle... Many gun shops across country have Savage parts on hand. But ALL of them virtually have Remington parts.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?

 

[Paul Revere]

A fully accessorized 98% H&K 91A2 at $2,300 is a decent deal.

Justify the expense this way. A 98% H&K 91A2 w/one steel factory mag should be priced right around $1,850-$2,000. Now if it has a factory claw scope mount, you'd add another $350 (add $225 for an ARMS, or $60 for a B-Square). The scope, depending on what it is (Simmons vs Leupold) could be another $150 to $750. Magazines, depending on whether they're steel, aluminum, or alloy, and whether they're factory H&K, NATO contract, or aftermarket, will run anywhere from $25 to $65 each. If you add a factory H&K bi-pod, add $125. A factory H&K bayonet, add $110. A factory canvas sling, add $50. A manual, add $15.

Given a choice between your two items. I'd be all over the H&K. It will out shoot the shooter in most cases, given it is rested with excellent optics and match ammo. But moreover, it is versatile. You can hunt big game, varmints, targets, and the enemy. It is easy to maintain, accurate as hell, and can be equipped with many, many additional goodies, like PSG-1 items.

 

[18908148]

Thanks guys, hey Paul whats the PSG-1 items? haven't hear of them much. Sounded like the HK was well set up and had at least multiple mags. Think the bipod was haris but unsure. On the other hand the stoner was for sure( I saw it ) had a match barrel and harris bipod with the 32 pow scope. And it sounds to me that if you got the HK fully excessorised it would be around 2800 or more. So it is a relatively good deal. Depending on the condition of the gun, Thanks for all of the information everyone I appreciate it.

 

[Paul Revere]

1890...

The H&K PSG-1 is the "ultimate sniper rifle". It is basically an HK91A2 but has a heavy match barrel, scope w/mount, special trigger group, stock, tri-pod, and comes in its own hard case for about $10,000. If you've ever seen the movie' "Sniper", with Tom Berringer, it was his civilian partner who brought along the PSG-1.

I don't believe you can put a harris bi-pod on an H&K 91. The bi-pod made by H&K is parkerized steel and it slips into a slot at the outboard end of the forearm, upon depressing a small flat steel tab. The slot allows the factory bi-pod to pivot from side to side, and when collapsed the legs fit nicely into pre-formed indentations along side the wide plastic forearm. The Harris requires attachment to a sling swivel head, of which the HK91A2 has none.

It isn't the scope on the H&K 91 that should concern you, but the scope mount should. Remember, an original H&K factory claw mount will cost about $450 new (less used). An ARMS mount is also top notch in my book. You'll distinguish the difference between the factory claw mount and the ARMS mount (which is also a claw mount) easily since the ARMS has a Weaver rail on top, the factory mount has 30mm rings.

Yes, 98% H&K 91A2 fully equipped with all factory accessories could easily get you in the $2,800 range. Keep in mind however, there are many of these thing stashed from the days they were selling for about $375 each. Finding one in NIB, or 99% condition would be a better decision than buying one that has any visible wear, dings, scratches, etc. You'll justify the additional cost too. Your resale value will always be higher on a piece that's been kept 99%.

 

[18908148]

Hey thanks, I didn't realize that the HK wouldn't except the haris. Appreciate the info. Why are haris -pods so popular?

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

My appology folks, after my average 12+ hour days I don't always explain things as clear as I would like. About the Savage guns, what I meant to say is that the locking lugs on the bolt are not fixed as on most rifle bolts, the bolt head has a limited amount of play to it. In a bolt action rifle the locking lugs on the bolt must mate with their corresponding recesses precisely. Bolth lugs must lock in place with equal tension or, when the action tightens with the pressure of firing the cartridge, the bolt can torque the action in one direction. All this can accelerate the wear of the rifle, don't ask how my ability to explain this is at its limits already. In the Savage, since the bolt head 'floats' a bit it is kind of a self correcting system. In other rifles this is corrected by lapping the bolt and truing the action, this takes time and money, I have little of either. Several serious shooters who I respect tell me the Remington 700 is the way to go and if/when I get to the precision rifle game I will probably get a 700 but the Savage is probably the very best place to start on a budget and few of us will ever shoot up to the level of our equipment.

Actually you can add a Harris bipod to the H&K, it's a simple matter of drilling a small hole in the forend, inserting an adapter inside and acraglassing or epoxying it in place. The Harris is as popular as it is because it is light, easily adjustable, relatively inexpensive and comes in several different styles.

As to the PSG-1 being the "ultimate sniper rifle", with all due respect to George, Paul Revere and all the rest of the H&K fans (good product dont get me wrong) I don't buy into it, I think the product line fails to live up to the hype. I think their reputation was built on the MP-5 and while it was certainly the best thing in its day, it's past it's prime. Still a great little gun but better things have come along. I can show you rifles for half the price quoted that give you greater range power and portability, at over 15 lbs the psg-1 is a hand full. Anyone interested in serious long range guns can respond to this post and I can turn you on to two very serious long range rifles. One is a Chandler rifle, the first one to be offered on the open market, all others are still in the hands of the original owners. Chandler rifles are a two year wait MINIMUM with prices starting over 5,000 for those willing to wait. The other is a Harris gun works .50BMG, a five shot repeater, real serious piece. If you want you could get bolth of these for little more than the PSG-1, if you want I could get you in touch with bolth shops here.

By the way, for anyone interested, turns out George isn't as dumb as he looks (if he were his brain couldn't produce the charge to move his fingers across the keyboard). Got it on the first try even.

 

[Jake 98c/11b]

By the way, the previous owner of the Chandler died two years ago or there would be no Chandler rifles on the open market. Get the picture.

 

[George Hill]

Just remember Jake - I hit what I am at.
That Rogain working for you yet or are you still the Range's Que-ball?

The one thing I like about the HK rifles - the reason I "buy" them.
They are predictable. They dont surprise you. You know what they are going to do. And with a gun your life may depend on - that is something worth the extra bucks.
Your right though about the hype - they have a real Cult following.
I dont follow them that closely - but I respect them. Much of the respect they have garnered has been earned. The hard way.
The fact the MP-5 was used in the well publicized failed rescue attempt of the Olympic team - well, that put them in the Arms spot light. That was the signal of the decline of the Uzi in the tactical response role. As SMGs go - I favor the Uzi. My bro likes the Beretta 12 more so. The MP-5, like other HK weapons are rather heavy. Some like that. I think its rather annoying.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?

 

[Paul Revere]

I know I said the PSG-1 is "the ultimate sniper rifle", but I didn't mean for that to be MY quote. It's just the general buzz on the street. Most likely a marketing ploy.

From all acounts, what I classify as the ultimate sniper rifle, is the Accuracy International (AI) line of rifles ( www.accuracyinternational.com ). If you've ever had the chance to handle one of these, you'd see why I say that. They are extremely fine weapons, set into an awesome looking kevlar stock, with popular actions, excellent triggers, detachable box magazines (in 5-10 rd capacities), and are usually coupled with the high end optics of Leupold Mark 4 scopes. All for about $5,000 (+/-).

BTW, AI has an absolutely awesome .50 caliber model that would scare an assailant into surrender just by looking at it.