Stick With "One Handgun"

[IanS]

I am by no means an "experienced shooter". But one thing I have come to believe is that if one is serious about being proficient with a defense gun it is ideal to stick with ONE SYSTEM. Whether its the 1911, DA/SA auto, Glock, H&K P7, Walther P99 or other.

I understand the temptation to own and shoot different types of guns (and become a weapons expert of sorts) but if you are not an avid shooter (at least hundreds of rounds each week) trying to shoot different types of guns every other week or so can only in the long run hurt one's potential to really learn how to shoot well. Don't overestimate your skills if you are not naturally gifted. You are probably not a trained Navy SEAL or SAS operator. I think one needs to be honest with oneself and their abilities.

Find a gun that's proven reliable, durable, reasonably accurate, and fits your hand. Push that gun so it performs and is reliable in different shooting scenarios. Make sure it'll work for you in whatever REASONABLE scenario you can think of. 1000 "flawless" rounds of slow target shooting with a strong two handed grip at an temp controlled range does not mean the gun is reliable. Practice Double tap, weak hand, and even limp wrist it and see how the gun will react. And just get to know whatever you choose like the back of your hand.


"Oh I forgot, that's how the mag release works. Its not a button release"

"Ooops, I forgot to release the safety"

"I'm just not used to that heavier DA trigger. But that SA trigger sure is nice. "

"Gee this Glock trigger feel mushy"



Well, not if you practice with it ALL THE TIME.

edit: Well, ok the Glock trigger will alway feel mushy. But its still a fast shooting trigger.


Just some thoughts. FWIW. YMMV

 

[Handy]

This seems to be a problem for some people, but I find it funny how they can be trusted to fly a plane, drive a car or ride a motorcycle without crashing the plane trying to step on the clutch.

I guess if you want to shoot more than one gun, you can't linger on any one too much.

 

[IanS]

Handy,

I believe what I'm talking about is repetition. And for some people they might not need as many repetitions to become proficient compared to the next person. It is possible for a person to learn how to drive a truck, ride a bicycle, learn how to play guitar, garden, calligraphy, bake a pie, and a range of other skills. But how about moments of intense stress. For defensive shooting I do believe that for most people "one does not rise to the occasion but reverts to ones level of training". How the mixture of fear, anger, adrenalin dump, "fight or flight" mode, tunnel vision, degradation of fine motor skills in a life and death situation can complicate how one will react and their time to react. I think being really familiar with ones defense gun will reduce the chances of things going wrong.

I threw this thread up in the air. I appreciate all comments.

 

[444]

I am certainly no expert. But I have been shooting for a fair amount of time. I have tried a number of the various shooting games and have been to a couple of the shooting schools. And, I own a pretty fair number of guns.
I have said the same thing you posted many times. If you really want to get good with a gun, the most important thing to do is to shoot. A lot. With one gun. It doesn't matter what gun, that is the least of the issues. With handguns, it doesn't matter if it is single aciton, double action, semiauto, revolver, big, small, whatever. The important thing is whether you know how to handle it.
If you had a childhood like mine, you would, at some point punch in on your childhood experience. When I was a kid, I had a BB gun. I didn't pick it out, it was a gift. I went out every day and shot hundreds of BBs. I knew that if I was standing on the sidewalk what angle to hold over to hit the board nailed to a tree by the woods. I could shoot the clothespins off the line. I shot ants. I shot grasshoppers. I loved to pretend that may apple plants were invading paratroopers and shoot the stalk of the plant so the top would fall over............ The point is that I only owned one gun and it was like an extension of my body because I shot it all the time. I knew the trigger, I knew the sights, I knew the trajectory of the BB because I shot it all the time.
Flash forward 30 years. I am now involved with a rifle shooting sport where you shoot steel plates out to 400 yards normally, but sometimes out to 800 yards with iron sights. I vowed when I started to shoot a different rifle at eveyr match. After a few months I realized that I would never win, or even get better like that. I needed to stick with one rifle and learn it's characteristics. I needed to know where to set the sights to hit that 400 yard plate. I needed to know how far to hold under a target at 25 yards.
Pistol shooting is no exception to this rule. Buy A gun. One that is reliable and fairly accurate. And then, don't look back. Don't worry about what else is out there. Don't worry about what the other guys are shooting. Only worry about mastering that gun. Save all the money you would have spent on dozens of different guns and put that money toward ammo, good magazines, good holsters, good belts, good training, etc.

 

[IanS]

444,

My God. Where were you 10 years ago? Oh, All the money I could have saved with that advice

 

[Handy]

I appreciate the thought. I'm just saying that once you get comfortable with the different approaches of different weapons, they're fundamentally similar and the basic skill set will operate any of them well (unless you are using two manual safety gun that work in opposite ways - Browning BDM vs. BHP).

But 90% of handguns can be accurately used if you:
1. Firmly grab the grip (P7 and grip safeties).
2. Sweep down with the thumb (to ensure frame manual safeties are off).
3. Use steady trigger pressure (good trigger control works with any gun).
4. Watch the front sight.

Sure, it can be goofed up if you carry a Beretta with the slide safety on, or it's an SA revolver, but for just about every standard combat arm carried in the readiest fashion you'll be shooting. And when it comes to reload, most guns are going to have the mag release in one of two places and the slide can always be slingshoted.

Using generalized techniques can take away the stress of switching off.

 

[esldude]

IanS,

You are indeed very wise. Some martial arts instructors say it takes 300 reps to learn something, and 3000 to master it. So sure maybe with enough reps with enough weapons someone might feel at home with many.

For most people, your idea of one gun is golden. I realized this when having a large gun collection. And things didn't get shot every year. Pull out a 'favorite' and fumble around with it at the range to remember little things. Decided that was crazy. Got rid of all, but a handful of weapons.

For your defensive pistol, best thing you can do if one is available is get a 22LR conversion. Have one for my Glock, which is the pistol I decided upon. Others would have done fine, this was my choice as it fits my hand great. With the 22 conversion, I can practice thousands of rounds in any conceivable situation. And the cues, experience everything transfers almost perfectly when firing the weapon as a 9mm.

The idea is for it to become second nature, a natural extension of my hand(s). Requiring no thought on my part. Just a near innate ability to use it as required.

When the shtf, you revert to your training. To what is most comfortable and known. Using only one pistol makes that easy.

 

[444]

Operating a handgun is one thing.
Being as good as you can be with a handgun is another thing.
If your desire is to be as good as you can possibly be, sticking with one gun is the ticket.

Just a very quick and simple example: At one time, I was shooting a Ruger P89 a lot. I was using it in a couple action pistol games as well as a lot of practice. One day I was out bird hunting and had the handgun on my belt. I spotted a coyote hopping into some bruch quite a distance away. I laid my shotgun down on the ground and drew my pistol. The coyote walked to the edge of the brush and stood bascially broadside to me. I fired a shot and hit it right behind the front shoulder. My buddy had a laser rangefinder: distance = 109 yards. How did I make the shot ? Because I was shooting that gun all the time. We regularly shot at junk lying in the desert at longish ranges with handguns. I knew where to hold at that approx. range because I was intimately familiar with that gun, it's sights, and my chosen load.
I could have stood there and operated any handgun made, but I doubt that I could have made the shot.
Imagine if you will, buying a handgun as a young man and regularly shooting it throughout your life. Plinking, training, competition. How good would you become ? On the other hand, if you primary interest in shooting is to become good with a gun (as opposed to a collector), what is the point in shooting 20 different handguns ? I can understand becoming familiar with their operation, but that is about all it will give you.

 

[IanS]

esldude,

No I am not wise. But I do try to listen to people who are.

 

[Hal]

The old woman in the car in front of me turned left. I couldn't believe she turned right in front of an oncoming truck, leaving the truck driver with a decision to T-Bone the old woman, or hit me head on. I never forget the look of true honest sorrow on the drivers face as he looked straight at me. He made his decision, it was the old woman that was to live,, not me. I wondered how he would feel afterwards,,how he would explaine his decision to himself, his kids his wife, his clergy. At least there was a decent song on the radio,,darned if I remember exactly what it was, but it was one I liked. then I got to thinking that I'd skipped lunch (as usual) and was going to miss dinner. Dang! I wonder what I was going to have that I'd never get to eat? Doggone it it ain't fair I"M HUNGRY!! and that damned old woman! She killed me and ruined that other guys life, and she's going to go on her way and never know what she did.---- Man that was rough on the front end - time to trade this one in I guess.

As near as I can remember this is exactly what went through my mind a couple/3 years ago when I was almost in a head on with a truck. I remember things happened reallllllll slooooooow, but at a blinding speed. 100% pure instinct (plus having logged half a million miles behind the wheel of 3 Honda Accords) took over and I steered right and jumped the curb - and out of harms way. If I'd been in another car with different controls, who knows? (Ya'all might have been spared my long and boring posts ). From the time the woman turned in front of the truck, until the time I thought about how rough climbing a curb had been on the suspension, probably took less than half a second. I honestly don't know. I was doing just shy of 25 mph and slowing down so, and the oncoming truck was probably doing close to 40mph. The distance was probably less than 50/75 feet when it allwent down.

My point here is that you just don't know how you're going to react in your mind to extreme stress. Anything that stacks the odds in your favor is a good thing. I'd love to relate how when faced with certain death that profound thoughts went through my mind, or that my last thoughts were for my family and prayers to God,,,,truth is though all I thought about was my God-damned stomach!!

I think chosing guns with similar controls is Ok. I gravitate to semis that are very HP/1911 like. All my D/A revolvers are Smith and Wesson. Same basic controls in the same basic locations. I used to go so far as to short load magazines so the number of rounds stayed constant. I still do that with the revolvers, but for some reason the semi autos, with different capacity magazines don't seem to make a difference.

Anyhow, my .02 and corny story. Stay safe, practice wise,,,not smart. Smart'll get ya killed.

 

[PaleRyder]

I've seen this advice from several other self defense folks too.
Now for my situation. I have decided to stick with one type of gun, the 1911. I own two though, both Springfields. One Loaded, one Milspec.
Does always shooting one of these count as practicing with one type?

 

[IanS]

I'm not exactly advocating that one should just shoot SIG P226's and should never shoot or own P220ST's, P229's, P228's, P225's, P239's and P232's. Shooting one handgun and being extremely intimate with it is the "ideal" although its not always practical. People have specific needs for certain situations. Sometimes one needs a snub nose revolver or a small single stack Kahr for their CCW needs. But there's the extreme where people's handgun collection balloons to BHP's, Beretta 92FS's, S&W K frame revolvers, H&K USP's, XD's, and Walther P99's or when people constantly jump from one system to another over the years. What I am advocating is to at minimum pare it down to a manageable level to one system or basic design. There are certain gun lines like Glocks, SIGs, 1911 (Full Size and Commander)/BHP, H&K USP's, XD's and S&W DA revolvers; where one system can fulfill a variety of needs and keep a shooter interested. Even then I think its best to stick with a single handgun that you become very intimate with and shoot the others as needed.

Again, there are people who shoot constantly and an insane # of rounds per year. They are the exception. They can figure out on their own what works best for them and what does not. I'm mainly addressing the avg. shooter who spends more time on the internet thinking about what gun they should purchase next, or what gun is more "tactical" or "cooler" or which gun "sucks" over another than spending the time dry firing their primary gun and shooting on the range.

 

[digitspaw]

I'm going to agree with you Ian. In addition, 444 and Hal have excellent advice. Hal>>you experienced the phenomena of "time dilation" which is very common in "fight or flight" scenarios. It gives the brain time to "default to the level of training" so to speak which is the main point of this thread.

Blood rushes to the main trunks, dexterity diminishes, your become myopic (tunnel vision) and auditory senses start to shut down. The instinct to survive takes over. Might as well have your defensive weapons system be as close to an appendage as possible.

444>>two great posts.

 

[gunrunner]

let me throw a little curve ball at you to think about. the more guns you handle the better you handle more guns. I agree that if you want just pin point accuracy for long range maybe sticking with one gun makes some since. but realisticly, target acquisition and sight picture are very similar with multiple guns. some people here talk like they are in a combat situation. then you would know you may end up shooting with your left hand or even someone elses gun just depends on the situation. I would rather be very skilled with what ever weapon I had access to. you may not be able to carry your rifle on your person. a larger gun you can carry on your hip or in a holster will not be easy to conceal if you needed deep concealment. In a real life situation you will not be trying to shoot your advisary at 109 yards. most gun fights are at 15 feet or closer I dont think you need to have pinpoint accuracy just the ability to gain a quick sight picture , and cycle the weapon. I have multiple guns and would say I can shoot them all with great proficiency. yes I can shoot a few guns better at 75 yard than others but I would rather be shooting my rifle at 75-250 yrds than a handgun if my life depended on it.I would bet one of my fine pistols that under a stressful (aka shootout) situation those long shots at 109 yards would not be on target . just my opinion but if you look at the information out there and talk with people who live and work in these enviroments they will tell you a different story. I am lucky I have not been placed in a bad situation. part of my training is to stay out of that unless absolutely necessary. I am looking at this from a CQC senario not a marksman perspective. i will tell you most of all my shooting friends are amazed how well i shoot my guns as well as theirs.

 

[esldude]

I don't know that anyone meant this as a long range accuracy thread. One fellow just illustrated one of the benefits of being intimate with a handgun using that 109 yard shot.

Most likely, you will have whatever handgun you brought with you to such a situation. While similar, guns differ just enough to mess you up under stress. Using just the one gun minimizes that effect. Besides, learn the sight picture for even one handgun, and I fail to see how you benefit if you have learned it for more than one in the scenario you describe.

Yeah, most gunfights are short and up close. You need to know without looking or fiddling about where the controls are on a handgun. I prefer Glocks because they don't have a safety to flick off. Even if you use a gun with a safety, those safeties are in enough different locations you may need to look(as in actually look down at the gun for it) if you pick up a different gun. Surely you don't think you can learn by the feel in your hand, what dozens of models feel like, and without looking also remember where the safeties are for them. I don't see this as doable under stress of combat.

 

[IanS]

gunrunner,

The main focus of this is the CQC or CQB scenario. Those examples by 444 of extreme accuracy with a handgun was merely making a point; that when one becomes "intimate" with a weapon one can more easily predict how it will perform in various situations. Whether the target is 3 feet away or even out to 100 yards. Just like when you hop into a new car, truck, or van one has to get acclimated to the way it brakes, corners, and handles under various situations. Things like the headlight switch to the emergency brake are located in different places and even operate differently. When mind, body, and machine are like one it is more likely one will be able to avoid accidents or push the machine to its true potential.

The emphasis was on how one should get to a level where one can instinctually (without conscious effort) and confidently handle their weapon under stress. Whether its putting a quick double tap from retention, a tactical reload, clearing out a jam, weak hand shooting, to basic safety issues like remembering to decock or engage the safety before holstering. Even the simplest things that can be efficiently accomplished on a calm afternoon at the range could get complicated or remiss under moment of extreme duress.

Extreme duress meaning one has already soiled ones pants. So that's another thing one might have to worry about.

So always remember to take a "Combat Dump" beforehand if you know you are heading into battle.

 

[gunrunner]

its mentioned multiple time about accuracy with one gun. and how multiple guns may not be good. you mention dozens of guns , fair to say no one here is talking dozens , more like a dozen guns. lets see. almost every glock is like every other glock, large line of the sigs are identical, 1911 style 7 different models with over 10 makers. all these are the same. so if you can handle like 5 models you can cover over 1 dozen guns. seems easy enough. then you mention you will be carrying the gun your brought. then you should be familar with the safety. hell if you get into a gun fight and your safety is on you were not wanting to get into a gun fight. the idea would be how you can handle the gun. cycle, aim, reload, correct jams, fix any minor malfunction. not trying to flame you but my guns dont have 3-4 controls , just one where is the trigger and what makes it go boom. sight picture is the bread and butter of shooting, thats why we have so many types, some people feel they can aim quicker more accurate with one type over the other . if you want to discuss controls of a handgun then i would be happy to test how quick you can fire, drop the mag and reload these handguns if you didnt shoot them and handle them first. 1)sig 323 2) Sw99 or P99 3)Glock ( since you like them.) the mag release and slide drops are in different locations, if your telling me that i cannot remember the difference when handling each gun and shooting them then you are mistaken. i promise i would be able to do this quite abit faster than you since you have only handled one gun. this sounds to much like if you shoot handguns then you cant shoot rifles and shot guns. i wish i could remember that old shooter on TV that could shoot flipping quarter with his rifle and pistol and he did it with multiple weapons, I am by no means this good but he clearly shot 4-5 weapons better than i shoot any one of mine.

 

[IanS]

gunrunner,

Please read the entire thread. It was not meant as a challenge to ANYONE. Merely positing a theory on how one may be able maximize ones potential with a defense gun in moments of extreme duress. If what you are doing is working for you then great. Stick with it.

But if what some of us here are suggesting sounds reasonable and logical then it may be of value to others.

Ian

 

[esldude]

Gunrunner,

I won't go into all the disagreements I have with some of your statements.

I will ask this one question.

Why do you think the TV shooter could shoot his rifle, and pistol better than you, and me?

Now I would venture it was because he has thousands more reps with each than you or I have. He also may have had more innate talent than you or I. But mainly he had lots more practice.

Now if you don't have an ammo company supplying tens of thousands of rounds to you each year, doesn't it make sense to make it as simple as possible, rather than trying to learn as many different things as possible. And make the most of the more limited reps most people get by using only one type gun.

I once owned a couple dozen guns. And changing mags, moving safeties, doing DA followed by SA triggers, versus SA only or DA only all those little things that don't much matter. Still rather than slapping a mag in without thought, some guns were angled just a bit different, fit just a bit different that the mag didn't slide in so easy or go quite where I meant for it to go. Despite being almost the same for all the guns. It was just that little difference that tripped me up. Have witnessed it with others too. I can only believe under heavy stress those little things will get worse. I certainly could and would pick up another pistol and function with it if that was my only choice. But not as well as one I use regularly.

 

[gunrunner]

sorry the Challenge was more of a mental game than a physical challenge, just thinking quickly in my head I knew these guns have different needs to work them. the more guns I handle the more comfortable i am with every gun I come across. I have seen more sights, understood more gun operations and dismantled more weapons. I think you can make arguments both ways if you are limited to what ability or skill level you are working with. as Handy stated if you want to be skilled with multiple weapons then you will need to shooting freq with multiple weapons. there where some medical studies that showed for something to become almost reflex you had to perform the task over 1000 times. then the action was second nature.