"staggering" ammo in a magazine?

[papershotshells]

Gentlemen,

I've read in several threads recently, both here on TFL and on various other sites, about the practice of "staggering" different types/weights of ammo in the magazine of a semi-auto self defense gun. For example, the top round in a 40 S&W mag might be a 155gr and the next might be a 135gr, followed by a 180gr, etc. Some people eve advocate a mixture of JHPs and FMJs, apparently to increase penetration of cover in some situations. From what I've read, the thinking behind this practice is because (as we all know), no one load is ideal for every situation we may encounter in the real world.

I'd like some thoughts on this practice.

I carry a Glock M22 40 S&W everyday, both as a duty weapon and a concealed gun when I'm not working. My current ammo selection is (a mag full of) 180gr Federal Hydra Shok. I feel well armed with this choice, but I am always looking to learn, to re-evaluate my thinking, etc.

Pros and cons?

The main con I can think of off the top of my head is different points of impact of different ammo, but I'm not sure that would be a major problem at the ranges most social shootings occur.

Opinions?

Thanks.

Papershotshells

 

[db4570]

I think this is a fun exercise, but not important in the real world. Decide whether you like light and fast, or heavy and slow (relatively speaking) and go with it. Can't go too wrong with Hydra Shoks, whichever you choose.

The last thing I'd want nagging me, even subconsciously, in a stress situation, is wondering what load is the next shot going to be. (Did I shoot three shots, or only two?) Plus, it's a bit obsessive. It's fun to be obsessive when we are looking at gun and ammo catalogs, or chatting about guns with friends, but not on the street.

FWIW

David

 

[skizzums]

in carrry gun, i just use one good ammo because i am always considering how i will be judged by a jury, but i get ridiculous with my HD guns, cause my defense will always be, well then gun had whatever i put in it at the range that day

12ga, chambered round pdx12 slug, second round 00 buck, then two pdx12, then 2 more 00 buck

9mm= chambered round is shotshell, at 10 feet it has about an 8 foot spread, so i dont have to aim well, and although it wont kill anyone, it will def suprise/blind them long enough to get my follow-up shots which are hornaday xtp90gr with 8,5gr HS6

levergun has a variety of large sp HPs and small, fast polymer tipped and some magnum flat points, all loaded hot; ex 160gr jacket flat with 18gr H110 1900fps

ar15, first 5 are vmax, rest are steel-core tracers for AP(like i would ever need it, but hey you never know)

but mainly i protect myself and my home with a 5 round taurus loaded strictly with critical defense, i just like the idea of the other guns loading configurations, gives you situations to think about and how you would ideally like to be armed, but those outstanding events will never occur(blue helmets)

 

[dogtown tom]

papershotshells Gentlemen,

I've read in several threads recently, both here on TFL and on various other sites, about the practice of "staggering" different types/weights of ammo in the magazine of a semi-auto self defense gun....

I've yet to hear of any law enforcement agency that recommends loading in such a fashion. I've also not met a single firearms instructor who recommended loading a magazine in a staggered fashion.

It's a silly concept, fed by movies and cheap crime novels.

 

[sigarms228]

Yeah. What could possibly go wrong with having a FMJ round in a SD gun?

 

[Tom Servo]

In theory, this is how people think it works:

"I'll have one tracer round for the shock-and-awe factor. After that, two hollowpoints for the COM shots. If that doesn't work, I'm assuming I have to defeat body armor and/or automobile glass, so I've got..."

In practice, this is how it really works:

"Holy cow, that guy's coming at me with a sharpened piece of rebar and murder in his eyes! I gotta...is something wrong with my gun? That didn't feel right. Oh great, now it's jammed, and..."

Honestly, I don't imagine even thinking about what ammo I've got in the gun, much less counting my shots, if I have to actually use it on another human being. It's far more practical to find reputable self-defense ammunition that shoots well and cycles well through the gun.

 

[thedudeabides]

I like the ammo that hits what the gun is aimed at and doesn't case malfunctions.

 

[tipoc]

That's a whole lot more thinking than I want to do and not get paid for it.

tipoc

 

[2ndsojourn]

skizzums, is your 9mm a semi-auto? Do shot shells cycle a semi-auto reliably?
That would be a concern of mine for follow-up shots.

 

[boondocker385]

I have yet to meet the bullet I want to be shot by.....I think you are overthinking it.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You will not be able to keep track of what is what.

Ditch the pocket shotgun hype. Learn to shoot a standard quality load accurately.

That goes for a shotgun as well. If you want slugs, carry them on a side holder and learn the switch to slug drill. BTW, I don't think anyone can come up with a case of this being done in a gunfight.

 

[Willie Lowman]

When I was a teen, it was recommended to me to load a HD shotgun with alternating slugs and buckshot. So I did. It sounded like a good idea, that is until I actually thought about it. Then I realized it was a stupid idea.

People that are loading a magazine with some bizzare blend of ammo are pretentding to know how a gunfight will actually go down.

the first 00 buck and somehow do not take them out, they will naturally take cover. The following slug is to "flush" them from cover. The third being 00 again to try and take em on the wing. If they take cover again, well you get the idea.

That's great. My crystal ball never worked so well as to tell me how the fight will happen. Oh, wait... Neither is his. He's just convienced himself that he knows what someone will "naturally" do.


My point is, loading a variety of shells/bullets into your magazine is stupid. You are pretending to know how event that may or may not be in your future will play out. That is foolishness if I ever heard it. Load hollow points from the first round to the last and learn how that load shoots in your gun.

 

[papershotshells]

Thanks for all the relies gentlemen,

A couple points.

I don't work for a law enforcement agency, I work private armed security and we're allowed to carry whatever ammo we want or are comfortable with.

I also agree that a lot of this "theory" is fueled by movies/tv/mall ninjas.

I am perfectly comfortable with the 180gr Hydra Shok for duty and home defense, my thoughts mainly were towards loading some FMJs lower in the magazine. This would be because one of the more dangerous posts I sometimes work is in a metal recycler (scrap yard) overnight. It can and does get robbed from time to time and help (police) is a long way away. I was thinking the FMJs may be of some benefit for penetrating cover (scrap metal) in a protracted engagement (the BG took cover). Just a thought is all, I may well be over thinking things.

I do appreciate all input, please keep it coming.

Papershotshells

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are SD rounds that are advertised as being efficacious against flesh and defeating common barriers (scrap metal?). That's probably better than FMJ that might sail through anything. Although, the other day - FMJ just bounces off the common match poppers and plates.

 

[TunnelRat]

I'm having a hard time imagining a barrier that would stop JHP but allow FMJ through. To me it's either hard enough to stop both or weak enough to allow both to pass through.

 

[44 AMP]

I'd say its a good idea to stagger various loads in your mag, and run a few mags of mixed ammo thought your gun. To see if they work. Better yet, have a friend load the mags for you. Then YOU get to shoot, not knowing what's in the pipe each time!

Was that flyer that just missed the silhouette you? Or was it because it was a 155gr load and not a 180gr?

When loading a shotgun, there is some sense to making a slug or two the last rounds in the mag (first in the tube), based on the general assumption that if you have fired 3 rnds of buckshot, the range is likely to have opened up. Also, with a shotgun, one can "top up" the mag, so feeding in more buckshot is simple.

Balance this against the fact that what may be useful advice for a duty weapon might not be such a good idea for a defensive weapon. As to self/home defense, first off, decide if you are going to be "houseclearing" if the situation allows for it. Tactics, and arms choices for that are different than for fixed defense.

Consistency is the key to accuracy. Potentially having every other round land in a different place is about as far from consistent as you are going to get.

I don't think its a good idea to mix ammo in your mag, other than for range use.

I don't work for a law enforcement agency, I work private armed security ...

And just what are the differences in the law that cover you vs a "private citizen"? Are you, legally, in a position where you would be "trading shots" with the bad guy(s) until backup arrives?

I say this because providing your own cover fire is something that is done in movies & tv, and if done by a private citizen, without the city, state, or county to back indemnify them, its a very poor idea. SO, are you someone who can shoot, and have a govt agency foot the bill for any repercussions, or are you like the rest of us (no matter what your job is), and personally responsible for ALL the possible costs of EVERY round we fire?

That would be a very good thing to know, I think.

 

[papershotshells]

Speaking of barrier penetration, can someone point me towards information on 40 S&W FBI test results? I'd like to compare the Hydra Shok to other types as far as barrier penetration.

Thanks again.

Papershotshells

 

[themalicious0ne]

If you work armed and are not limited to hollowpoints like police are, due to the worry of over-penetration, have another magazine loaded with FMJ. When I worked armed security and was not limited to ammunition type, thats what I did. I would assume you are required to carry three magazines like I was, and if so a magazine of FMJ's might not be a bad idea. My thinking was, if i shoot through 2 whole magazines in an encounter, I'm not much gonna care what my last magazine is. I am probably in trouble. On the off chance I have time and cover, at least I have the option to change to FMJ's. Realistically speaking, that likelyhood is nill to none. As I said though if you end up shooting till that third magazine, a prosecutor or jury can grill me about the last mag being FMJ's. I will be happy to be alive.

I have also heard that "staggering" a magazine could cause feeding reliability issues. I havent tried it, nor do I see a need to.

Best of luck with your descision, I think you would never have a situation where after you use a magazine of HP you will wish you had FMJ's.

 

[papershotshells]

themalicious0ne,

That's something I hadn't thought of, carrying different ammo in my third (or even second) magazine. That's something I may ponder, as I do carry 3, 15 round magazines (I pray that I NEVER get into a situation where I fire 45 rounds and STILL haven't neutralized any and all threats).

I also practice reload with retention, so in theory I could even transition to a magazine of FMJs if the situation dictated, and still retain a reserve of my HP ammo. In my gun, the Federal 180gr FMJ rounds shoot to the same POI as the 180gr Hydra Shok ammo, so that would allay at least that potential problem, also feeding problems with the FMJs would be a non-issue. Definitely something to consider.

Also, I got your PM, thanks for the link, I will check that out after work today.

Papershotshells

 

[themalicious0ne]

The feeding reliability issue I remember was just hearsay. I actually believe I read it on this forum. Without statistical evidence and not having tried it myself, I cannot say here nor there. I believe it was the issue of going from FMJ's to HP in a single magazine if I recall. I would never worry about transitioning to FMJ's from HP's. Like I said though, it made me ponder the validity of having alternating rounds in a magazine. If it could in theory or in practice cause some type of an issue, I'll pass. I felt the same way as you when I worked armed. I thought, for the one in a million chance, at least I have a magazine of FMJ's. As most people pointed out though, either round will probably penetrate or it wont. The only edge I ever felt having that magazine of FMJ's gave me was confidence. I believed I had my bases covered given any circumstance where I could deploy my weapon. Confidence is a nice little layer of pease of mind. It's pretty much the reasons for all the descisions we make regarding firearms. Everyone has their preferences and they may be different and none of them wrong, but at the end of the day, everyone feels confident with what they are using.

Glad I could be of some help.