Sporterized Milsurp Rifles

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Leif

New member
In looking at the milsurp rifles offered for sale on Gunbroker, Gunsamerica, etc., I frequently see rifles that already have been sporterized and offered for sale at what seem like quite reasonable prices. Judging by the photos, some appear to be quality jobs, some seem like crap.

Does anybody buy these, and if so, how do you assess them, especially when doing this via the Internet? What sorts of questions do you ask? What problems do you try to avoid? What are the pitfalls?

I realize that if you want a quality modern rifle, you probably should pay the money to buy a quality modern rifle rather than think you can truly "do it on the cheap" by buying a sportized milsurp. There's just some interesting rifles out there, some of which are beautifully done.

Also, I know that in the 1950s and 1960s many companies used to sporterize military rifles and offer them for sale as hunting rifles. Is there a comprehensive source that discusses the history of this and the pros and cons of those rifles?
 
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greg531mi

New member
sporterized rifles unless made and marked by a reputable gunsmith, like Segley, are not worth as much as a untouched unsporterized one. If the metal has not been altered, they can be turned back into a orginal, if you can find all the matching parts.....
Most of them have been kitchen tabletop butchered, by gunsmith wantabes in the the 50's and 60's, have been drilled and tapped, and barrels and stocks replaced. Some have been done decent, but most have been done badly. If you cannot look at one in person, I would not buy one.
 
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kentucky_smith

New member
rifles.JPG



The one at the top is a sporterized mauser k98k mfgd in 1940, and it's a russian capture.

Centerfire systems (www.centerfiresystems.com) are sporterizing these, but that's only with the steyr scout-like stock. This gun was in great shape and the bore is like new, makes a great truck, 4wheeler gun for whitetail season.

One of these days would like to get an original stock, but for now it's a shooter.
 
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Limeyfellow

New member
Sporterisations are the vain of ww2 rifle collectors and has driven more than one into spitting raging pyschos. Some are altered okay but many are horrid hack jobs.
 
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cracked butt

New member
I've seen a few really nice ones made from 1903s, 1917s, and mausers. That said, I've seen hundreds of gun abortions that make my skin crawl.
 
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jefnvk

New member
I've gotta go with CB. There are some nice ones out there (usually 03's or 98's), but for every nice one there are probably 50 that look like they were cutdown with a pocket knife, drilled with a hand drill and had the barrels cut off with a torch (maybe not that bad, but you get the idea).
 
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Crosshair

New member
There is a low number (Serial number is 49XXX) M1 Garand at a local pawn shop that has just been raped.:mad: It looks like total crap (Owner wants $850 for it), what a waste.:( I am trying to save whatever I can that I come across. Right now I have a Savage 99 on layaway. Believe it or not, I have seen hack jobs on those as well. Some dip**** added a flash suppressor to one and cut down the barrel.

Still looking for a good 30-40 Krag. Quick question, are Krags easy to rebarrel and how does their value hold after being rebarreled? If there is poor rifling, should I just stick to lead bullets? (Nice one at a local store, but the barrel looks almost shot, but everything else is in great shape.)
 
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cracked butt

New member
There is a low number (Serial number is 49XXX) M1 Garand at a local pawn shop that has just been raped. It looks like total crap (Owner wants $850 for it), what a waste
Click to expand...

Yep. I have yet to see a modified M1 that looks as good as if it were left original. The M1 is a goofy looking rifle to start with though in an appealing way, but when someone sticks an engraved monte carlo stock on one or starts whittling away at the stock, it just becomes absurd looking. :barf:
 
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Clayfish

New member
Sporterizing old milsurps is great fun. I took a turk 98 and sporterized it. I learned alot and had alot of fun. I put about $300.00 into the rifle although I know I could probably get only a couple hundred for it. I would never sell it because I have so much ownership in it. I'm not very good at finishing metal so the bluing is not proffesional but I'm shooting moa with it. It's a great project that'll make you proud in the long run. Don't buy a sporterized milsurp, build your own.
 
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Leif

New member
Thanks for your replies thus far.

I guess what I'm getting at is how do you judge a milsurp rifle that has been sportized? What do you look at if you look at these at all?

For example, while in a local gunshop a few weeks ago, they had a sporterized Chilean Mauser in 7x57mm caliber and wanted about $150 for it IIRC. Now, I'm not getting it because I don't really need or want it, but how would you judge something like this? It had a nice set of Lyman aperature sights on it, a rather blah commercial wooden stock that probably would look better refinished (but it wasn't a cut down version of the original stock). It still retained the straight bolt handle and was not drilled and tapped. All in all, it seemed like a decent, used general purpose sort of rifle. The salesman had no information about it - it was something they acquired in a trade and he didn't know anything about Mausers, sporterized or original.

Yes, I've seen very nice versions of 03's, that was one of the reasons behind this question.
 
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Olaf

New member
First, in most cases, drop any pretense to concern about "collector's value". The exception to this is if you intend to restore the weapon to original condition - then, consider specifically what has been changed. If only the stock has been modified....then the weapon is a good candidate for restoration. If the receiver has been d&t'd....then forget it....this rifle will be a shooter only. Consider also that any alterations, including simply cutting a stock, will reduce "collectors value"...because a restoration will involve parts non-original to that particular weapon.

Once past the "collector's value" issue, the considerations are the same as for any other used weapon. Overall condition, condition of the bore, the bluing (or other finish), how well/ smooth is the action, how well maintained the weapon appears to be....etc. Also consider the quality of the "bubba" job. That is all straightforward stuff.

In summary, in most cases, a bubba'd milsurp rifle will not be a valuable collector's piece, in the end. So, if it were me, I'd look at bubbas as any other used rifle....except that they hold a bit more interest, due to their origin. Of course, there are always exceptions...such as a rifle with alterations only to the stock....and the possibility of obtaining an original replacement (if the stocks were not originally numbered to the rifle) - that sort of thing.

IMO, in the main, it is best to not spend much time considering the potential collectability of an altered weapon - but merely to consider it as a potential shooter.
 
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Leif

New member
Olaf, thanks, that's what I was getting at. Not concerned about the value or collectability with this ... simply the shoot-ability. :D
 
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essexcounty

New member
Bubba is not a fair term...........

And it piise me off. A lot of modified mil-surps had a lot of time and craftsmanship put into them. Not everyone had the greenbacks for a new Winchester or remington in 1960. There are a bunch of forums where their discussion is not acceptable. I collect Mosin-Nagants, but I'd still pick up a nicly done sporter if one crosses my path.........Essex
 
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dale taylor

New member
I have sporterized a Mod96 and Mod98. Like Clayfish I learned a lot, had fun and got much satifaction. I reject the condemation of the purists. My 96 6.5x55 and 338 with Douglas barrel are wonderfully accurate. daleltaylor@att.net
 
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spacemanspiff

New member
about the only way i'd buy a sporterized milsurp is if i could talk to the smith who did the work. most of the time, up here in alaska, the work is done by a garage gunsmith whose work i wouldnt trust. so many people have done their own drilling and tapping of recievers and botched the work, that the first thing i look at is if its been drilled/tapped. if so, i dont bother looking any further.

theres a sporterized wwi mauser sitting in one of the pawn shops since 2001. the price they have on it now is $275, but i've seen it as high as $400. its got matching numbers, a semi-decent bore, but its been drilled/tapped, and has a funky stock with cracks all over it. i think the barrels also been cut down as well. pains me because the action is so nice, and if it wasnt drilled/tapped, i'd buy it.
 
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Olaf

New member
essexcounty,
I agree with you. The term "bubba" is very often misused....and used as a derisive term, by many "elitists" in the milsurp fraternity. I only use the term to denote badly done alterations...NOT just any alterations. I consider a carefully crafted, modified rifle, of whatever type....to be a great thing. Excepting the "collector" issue, I do not automatically consider a modified rifle in a negative sense, at all. To do so, I think, is short-sighted and stupid.

In fact, I have a modified (or bubba'd)..or altered...or whatever term one wishes to apply...Yugoslav M48. I sporterized it, in the end, because I could not get it to shoot up to it's potential with the original military stock. Now, after changing to a 24/47 stock....shortening the stock....and glass-bedding...as well as several other minor tweaks, the rifle is capable of shooting into an inch consistently, with the right handloads. It feeds whatever ammo I give it without problems. My M48, as it happens, is all non-matching....so "collector's value" was NEVER an issue. I took my time with the changes I made...and put every effort into the quality of the finished product.

Nevertheless, some unfeeling types will label it as a "bubba" or "hack" job....without consideration of the details. I can be upset at this...or not care. I choose to not care, because 1) I know what the rifle will do....and 2) most of those who are guilty of piling derision on those who make alterations for their own (valid) reasons....have no imagination anyway....and often generally do not know their heads from their a%%#@. So, I do not spend a lot of time worrying about such opinions.

At the end of the day, we do not have to please others....we only have to please ourselves. Especially when matters of personal property are considered.
 
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Clemson

New member
Leif, back to your original question: A sporterized rifle can be a great bargain if you get a good one. The original Mauser Oberndorf actions, the 1909 Argentines made by DWM in Berlin, the Czech 98/22 and VZ 24 actions, and several others have better machined actions than most commercial rifles have. A rebarrel with a Shilen, Douglas, Pac-Nor, etc. barrel will give you a much better tube than any factory Winchester, Remington, Savage, etc. barrel. Mass production stocks cannot compare to hand-made customs.

If the gun looks good, it very likely IS good. Even if it looks bad, the action may be usable in a reincarnation.

A caution is to learn about the various actions before you jump on a sporterized gun. The 7x57 Chilean that you saw has a Model 95 action. It cocks on closing rather than on opening. It is considered much weaker by design than a Model 98. It is beautifully made, but it is relatively soft, and it does not handle gas from a pierced primer nearly as well as a Model 98.

Keep your eyes open, however, and you can find some really fine rifles for a fraction of their worth.

Clemson
 
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Death from Afar

New member
Back in the 1940's and 1950's in New Zealand you could get any rifle you wanted...provided it was a .303. In any gun shoppe there will be lots of cut down enfields, with all sorts of alterations. The main one is a hack job to the stock, followed by biffing all the military stuff like bayonet lugs etc. Some of then have good metal work, and I always keep an eye on the "Stock only" ones, as you can occassionally find a good one. My grandfather would not belive the prices that good enfields command now!
 
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