Speer 180gn RNSP in .303 British

[pathdoc]

I got them because they were all that was locally available between the lightweights (150gn Hornady SP - the company advised me these were a little light for moose) and the premium-brand Woodleigh heavies (215gn).

Questions, please, if anyone can help:

1) Is there anyone out there who perchance has a load for this projectile which uses IMR 3031 as the powder? Not that I don't have alternatives (Varget), but seeing as I have a full jar of it I thought I might put it to use with as many different projectiles in my inventory as possible if I could.

2) Has anyone out there shot something with it - either in .303 British or some other .311-.312" calibre cartridge; not too fussed - and can give me a performance appraisal?

3) Assuming one is keeping to sensible distances (certainly under 300yd), does the RN actually have ANY advantage at all where a softnose spitzer is available in the same weight and shootable at the same velocities? (I have read enough to suggest that "brush-bucking ability" may well be a chimera).

 

[tangolima]

I used that bullet in my SMLE #4 a while ago, with varget. I was shooting at paper target at 100 yards, so can't tell much compared to other soft points. Here are some loads out of my collection for IMR3031. They came from different sources, so they could be contradictory.

1. Max. load. 42gr. 2520 fps.
2. Max. load. 38.3gr. 2341 fps.

Hope this helps.

-TL

 

[44 AMP]

.303 British SMLE Mark III*
180gr bullet
IMR 3031
Start 35.0gr
Max 39.0gr

IMR 3031 is just a tad fast for best performance in this caliber. Slower powders will yield 100-150fps more before peak pressure is reached.

Work up your load carefully. IMR 3031 should allow you to push the 180 at about 2300fps max loading, assuming your rifle is in good shape.

The brush bucking ability of a round nose bullet is more faith than fact, but even so, sometimes faith is enough.

Also, when the range is short-ish you don't get any real advantage from a spritzer. Where the pointed bullet shines over the roundnose is when the range gets long, out at 300yrd and beyond, the pointed bullet retains velocity better.

 

[oldpapps]

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=92987&stc=1&d=1384970271

1) This is what I used, see the attached photo. The price tag is from the pre 'Basspro' business in Springfield. Too bad the prices aren't the same now.
2) Put two in the same hole, not the same exit, at 75-80 yards as the deer was running but not much farther. I have the tanned hide.
3) Bucking 'brush'... At the velocities these run, I haven't seen any difference one way or the other. Not that I'm saying it doesn't happen. I just try not to shoot brush.

 

[pathdoc]

Thanks all.

Tangolima, 44AMP - what are your sources, out of interest? 35gn of 3031 for a start looks about right; IIRC IMR-3031 is the direct descendant of the propellant for US-made MkVIIz SAA ball, which is ALMOST weight-for-weight the same as cordite. Max, of course, is an individual rifle thing and I'd be creeping up on that one carefully.

44AMP, your comments on 3031 not being the ideal propellant for best performance are noted. However, as I said - this is more in the way of knowing I'm able to use it than preferring to do so. Varget is my usual go-to (*nods in tangolima's direction*), but that's been a bit thin on the ground lately.

Out of interest, tangolima, what sort of groups were you getting?

Oldpapps - not a bad result. As for the exit holes, it's the luck of the draw which path it takes, really - so long as it wrecks at least one lung and/or the heart, it can go where it likes after that.

 

[tangolima]

I have one SMLE #1, MKIII and one SMLE #4, and I handload for them. When I signed up for loaddata.com last year, I just grabbed everything them had on .303 Brit. Those numbers were from different editions of load manuals and magazine articles.

After some tweaking, all my rifles shoot no worse than 2" groups out 100 yards (2 MOA) with iron sights.

The SMLE #1 is always the pride of my collection. Made in England (BSA) in 1918, probably saw both wars, and I can't still out shoot some of today's bollocky tactical toys.

-TL

 

[44 AMP]

Pathdoc, the data I posted is "old", from the Lyman Handbook, 1970. It was the first book I ran across that had both the 180gr bullet weight and IMR3031 data.

What I meant by 3031 not being the best powder was only meant as a general statement. Slightly slower burning powders will deliver slightly higher velocities at the same max pressures. I use IMR 4895 in the .303, not because it will give slightly higher speeds than 3031, but because I use it in my other milsurp calibers (8mm, 7.7mm, 7.62x54R, etc).

You can certainly built quite adequate ammo using 3031, and wringing every possible FPS from the .303 Brit isn't what most folks are after anyway.

Accurate and adequate power loads can be cooked up with 3031, and if that's what you have, by all means, use it.

Some of the SMLE's are fine shooters, some aren't, it simply depends on the individual rifle and the ammo. My No1 SMLE (1917mfg), which I got cheap some years ago, because the owner said the barrel was "shot out", put 5 rnds of Rem factory in 1.5" at 60yds, from a kneeling position. I believe the previous owner was mistaken about the barrel.

 

[pathdoc]

only meant as a general statement. Slightly slower burning powders will deliver slightly higher velocities at the same max pressures.

Yes; this is what I thought you were getting at. Ditto your statement that velocity isn't everything in the .303. From what I've heard where I live, I can anticipate most of my shots being at 250yd or under, at which any reasonable load should drive a 180 or 215gn bullet fast enough to do a moose in if I can park the bullet inside the thorax somewhere.

I actually have some 215gn bullets which are my preferred hunting load, but not that many and it'll be hard to get more. I wanted to develop a "practice" load with which I could train myself to shoot under field conditions (no bipod or even no rest at all) and which would give similar recoil, but which I could take into the field if I found a combination which shot better than the ultra-heavies or if my rifle doesn't like the 215gn for some reason (I had feed issues with previous SMLEs and these bullets that I never got fully sorted out before I had to sell those rifles).

True, I do have a whole heap of left-over 174gn FMJ-BT bullets from target shooting days; and while they're fun and might be useful if SHTF/zombies arise, it's pointless to develop a good load with them that I can't even contemplate taking hunting.

 

[Mike / Tx]

I personally have only used 3031 for some 150gr loads out of ours. Years and years ago, Pop used IMR-4895 (as indicated above) for the 180gr Hornady RN's. I don't have the exact data laying around and would have to rummage around through some old ammo boxes in hopes of finding it. It however is listed in the back of his circa 67'ish Lyman manual as "303 Brit-IMR4895 for 180gr Horn. RN"

I can say this, if your looking to load the cases several times do some research on it, and find what works best in YOUR chamber. Also you might look into a case extractor as well. I say this not as a discredit to your loading or case prep, but as a simple tidbit of knowledge. I remember many times Pop and my uncles using the extractor to pull out split cases from the chambers of the ones we used (there were several of them) when I was growing up. He was careful to use the paper clip trick as well looking for impending splits, but sometimes it simply happened. Just part of the oversized chambers involved with this caliber.

We only neck sized most cases and would only set the shoulder back when necessary. The rifle we have was used primarily by my mom who hunted from fixed stands and shots were usually 50-75yds. The 180's did a number on her bucks year after year until she simply couldn't handle the recoil. When she was in her mid to late 60's she started using a .270 with very light 130gr handloads. They recoiled about like a light loaded .243. She continued up until she was 72 with that, taking several more nice bucks,until she simply gave it up totally.

Sorry to get distracted, just the thoughts of those days bring up a LOT of memories. Lots of great times in the woods with the family growing up.

 

[pathdoc]

Mike / Tx, thanks for your input.

No need to worry about me taking offence. I invested in a broken shell extractor quite some time ago, as I was initially full length resizing everything and knew I had the potential for problems (I saw it happen on the range once, though not to .303 British, and decided it was something I really needed). I'm actually hoping for this misfortune to happen at the range sometime soon, so I can learn to deal with it at a relaxed pace when there isn't several months' worth of mooseburgers riding on the result.

Some of my cases have lasted at least six or seven firings despite full-length resizing & still going. I use mostly Privi Partizan brass, which is factory-annealed and nothing short of excellent - one badly split case shoulder and a couple of neck splits is all I've had thus far, but I haven't ever really tried stoking the fires, so to speak. The groups tightened then opened up again long before I got to pressure signs, and there was no point even trying to go higher.

I now neck-size, except for FLR'ing the cases that were used in previous chambers to "reset" them for the new one - got the old Lee whackamole Loader, which does a decent job for what it is, and have ordered a collet die.

After much digging about, I found my copy of Ackley's handbook: he gives a 36 grain load for 3031 with 180 grain bullets (brand unspecified), which - given the way he organises his data - is maximum, and he lists 2200fps for that. Taking off the obligatory 10% takes me down to 32.5gn or thereabouts, which is substantially lower than anything you guys have listed, but maybe 3031 was a bit more fierce back in the day.

I might take the average of all these starting loads, throw a few together, and cautiously advance in half-grain steps from there to see what happens. Let you know how it all goes when the weather clears and work stops getting in the way.

 

[pathdoc]

Bumped to update. Laughing somewhat ironically here. Why?

1) I just took possession of my Lee collet neck sizing die in .303 British. As is the practice with these things, they included a sheet of load data. Lo and behold, what should appear but a load for jacketed 180 grain bullets and IMR 3031!! Yay! (Start load 33.7gn or a 2.5cc dipper; maximum 38.3gn for the record).

2) BUT WAIT. Opening the sheet up, we read the fine print!

"SPEER ADVISES THAT SPEER BULLETS SHOULD NOT BE USED WITH CERTAIN LEE DIES. ALL OTHER BRANDS WORK GREAT!"

Oh great! NOW they tell me!

So that leads to a new question. Or rather, two.

1) With WHICH Lee dies should they not be used?

2) Why not?

(Edited to add - the guys at Speer were very helpful and explained that the die they object to is the Lee Factory Crimp Die, particularly when people try to use it on bullets that don't have cannelures, but also those which do for some reason. Since I hardly ever crimp, I'm good to go.)