Special on the Military History channel the other day

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TNT

New member
I watched it the other day and was talking about the 10 best battle rifles of all time. I thought the criteria's were alright. I did not agree with the assesment of the Garand, the marks I thought would have been excellent rather than good. As Far as the AK getting the marks it did, beings that it was a off shoot of the Stg 44 I thought that that it should have been given more credit than it did. granted the service life was limited but it was a inovation as was the Garand. They set the standards for the rest of the world to follow
Points given on Service life, handling, design, innovation, one more I though but can't remember.
 
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TNT

New member
I could be wrong but I do believe the list was
1.) AK-47
2.) M16
3.)Lee Enfield
4.)Garand
5.)K98
6.)FN FAL
7.)1903 springfield
8.)Styer Aug bullpup
9.) Stg 44
10.) M14
the order may be a little bit off top 4 are correct but in between could be a little bit shuffled
 
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SavageSniper

New member
I watched that show as well. I too thought that the Garand and the stg44 should have had higher scores. Esp. the 44. I know that Mikhail Kalashnikov said that he did not copy the stg44 when he made the AK, but I do not buy it. Just like they did not copy German plans for the Mig 15, which was designed by Siegfried Guenther , chief designer for Heinkel Aircraft.
 
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TNT

New member
Mosin Nagant
FAMAS
sounds French and I guess the most anybody has seen of any French rifle is when they are in the air (AKA surrendering)
 
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aspen1964

New member
the m16 does not belong at number 4....very checkered past...many US service men killed beacuse of jamming in a firefight...today there persists complaints as to the 5.56mm being effective...still complaints about guns jamming in desert dust conditions...the gun always requires a lot of PR bull to justify it's useage....the M1 on the other hand had it's bugs worked out quickly..was very effective on soft and hard targets even at long ranges...was used in desert heat, sub sub zero cold, pacific island sand and european mud and held a commendable record as to reliability...soldiers far and wide praised it above other weapons...
 
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44 AMP

Staff
History Channel

They get a lot right, but not everything. Overall a pretty good source, but not a definitive one.

One thing I have noticed with recent shows, is mention of guns jamming. These are actual veteran's stories, well researched. One show (Iwo Jima, I think) had a GI in hand to hand because his .45 jammed, and later, another GI charges a Jap foxhole and wipes out several enemy with his .45. The good and the bad, seems pretty fair overall.

Our guns from WWII have a great reputation, but if you read the actual details, you see a lot of problems. We don't talk much about it today, but our stuff had it's share of problems too.
 
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blume357

New member
Heres my question for you M-16 and AR folks

I've only shot one once... What do you do when one of those jam? It looks to me like you might have to start to take the gun apart... M1 and such, you can usually dig the round out in a second and start shooting again. I'm thinking that might be just as import as how often a gun jams as to how easy it is to clear.
 
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hodaka

New member
I own 3 AR's presently. I shoot reloaded ammo exclusively. About 50 rounds or so each week through one or the other of them. I cannot remember a jam occuring. If it did jam I would: 1) drop the mag 2) pull the charge handle 3) insert another mag 4) shoot again. In my experience they are pretty reliable.
 
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270Win

New member
I agree, Mosin-Nagant should've been up there somewhere... on my list, the AUG would be out (what world conflict has IT influenced?) and the 91/30 in.

All in all, though, a very interesting show. TV needs more like this.
 
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HorseSoldier

New member
Ah, the History Channel -- fine purveyors of historical misinformation since 1988 or whenever they hit the airwaves.

As Far as the AK getting the marks it did, beings that it was a off shoot of the Stg 44 I thought that that it should have been given more credit than it did.
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The AK and the StG-44 are said to enjoy only some modest external cosmetic similarities. The "Kalashnikov just copied the Germans" argument is just ignorance by those who can't conceive of the idea that those backwards bad guys could have possibly gotten something right, despite plenty of Russian/Soviet innovations that coexist with their less than innovative and downright backwards bits of kit.

the m16 does not belong at number 4....
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Belongs at the top of the list.

very checkered past...many US service men killed beacuse of jamming in a firefight...today there persists complaints as to the 5.56mm being effective...still complaints about guns jamming in desert dust conditions...
Click to expand...

Funny how the guys out there where the rubber meets the road, using the thing in combat, seem to never be the ones actually complaining about reliability or lethality or anything else. :rolleyes:

the gun always requires a lot of PR bull to justify it's useage....the M1 on the other hand had it's bugs worked out quickly..was very effective on soft and hard targets even at long ranges...was used in desert heat, sub sub zero cold, pacific island sand and european mud and held a commendable record as to reliability...soldiers far and wide praised it above other weapons...
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The M1 was the best of a bad lot of rifles around in WW2 (until the StG-44 showed up). None of them were designed or optimized for real combat, being overpowered and intended for how ignorant generals imagined combat happened rather than how it really occurred.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love my CMP Garand, but, as an infantry rifle, it still mostly got it wrong, except for the boost in firepower.
 
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aspen1964

New member
I remember working for an aiport shuttle service many years ago and talking with someone(Ken Nance if you insist on a name) who was in Vietnam...he said the M16 was jam-prone too much..if it did badly you held the gun by the barrel caught the side of your boot on the charging handle and kick the handle out...bad position to be in while in a firefight...he also said it felt like shooting a pop-gun beacuse of the small cailber...Dick Culver in his well-known article on the M16 in Vietnam said many soldiers who were caught in the early problems with this gun kept a cleaning rod taped to the gun while in the field...he also said far too many marines were found dead in the field with cleaning rods stuck down the barrels of the 16s....and I keep seeing articles on complaints of sand jamming the M16 today in Iraq and Afghanistan...and the lack of penetration when needed in the caliber...that is part of why the M16 is sort of a make-it-kind-of-work issue gun...a lot of politics in military brass & industry too...


WW2 weapons had problems like we have problems today...there is no problem-free gun...
 
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juliet charley

New member
Funny how the guys out there where the rubber meets the road, using the thing in combat, seem to never be the ones actually complaining about reliability or lethality or anything else.
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Depends on when you used it. When it was first introduced, it was a real dog. I couldn't go through a magazine will real "take-it-out-action" jam--and yes, it did get GIs killed. Fortunately, they ironed out the bugs very quickly (and ammo was a contributing factor). FWIW, they had SMLE (and No. 4, Mk I) correctly pegged as a better combat rifle than the Garand. BTW, you'll find a more realistic of the M1 as a combat rifle (including reliability) in Ordinance Went Up Front--good but not outstanding.
 
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TNT

New member
juliet charley you bring up a valid point about the powder issue many people forget about that, but is was funny talking about little oddities and such but it also mentioned that a investigation ws called for beleiving that the Marines were doing executions of terrroists only to find out that the Marines were taking head shots because that is all that they were able to see was the bad guys head. Showing what accuracy the 16 in was capable of. Atthought I never caught whether that was the A-2 or the M-4. That it was done with.
 
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Pucker

New member
I love the word history. His-Story.

And the only jam my m4gery ever had would have been a killer. It ripped a little bit of the head off a spent casing where the extractor bites it and it would NOT come out. It would have been an aweful situation had my arse been on the line. Killed my shooting trip too. Ever since then I don't take an AR anywhere without a rod. New winchester q3131 too...
 
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TNT

New member
Can't say Punker that I have ever had that problem with mine my dual mags that go into the Mini or tha AR even though they work great for my Mini really suck in my AR.
 
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