Some questions from a reloading noob.

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Nickel Plated

New member
So I'm completely new to reloading in general and black powder cartridges in particular.
I just finished converting my Uberti '58 Navy to .38 Spl using the Kirst kit and now it's time to roll up some black powder cartridges for it to try out. Great excuse to get into reloading I guess.
Got a Lee Classic Turret press kit to start me off.

Anyway I wanted to know if the Hornady lead bullets would be any good for use in BP cartridges.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/international/0/productId/6007
I read that the lead bullets you'd want to use in a BP cartridge are generally softer that the stuff usually used in smokeless applications. But I already got a 300round box of the Hornady stuff on it's way to me and hoping it will atleast be usable and then i can buy something more suitable for the task.

Also what about lubing the bullets. Could I use the same lubes that I'd put over the ball on a cap 'n ball revolver? Or does it have to be something else? I have a decent sized supply of Traditions WonderLube
 
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Hawg

New member
Those bullets won't hold enough lube for bp cartridges and forget Lee Alox its a petroleum based lube which will make fouling worse.
 
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Barnacle Brad

New member
PRODUCT INFORMATION
Hornady lead pistol bullets are pre-lubricated, extra-hard and cold-swaged for total uniformity and balance. Our exclusive knurling system retains lubricant over the entire bearing surface to reduce leading in your barrel.
Click to expand...

From the link you provided - guess you don't need to lube it, if it already is? Generally a lube like SPG is used on rifle bullets to aid in keeping the BP fouling soft. I don't know if it is such an issue with a pistol barrel.

After you shoot some of these, if there is no problem with leading, you have no worries. Just run with 'em. If you have leading issues you can try Lee liquid alox. If that does not resolve the issue you would then want to try a bullet with deep lube gooves and an SPG type lube.
 
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Barnacle Brad

New member
So the answer is the bullets the OP purchased should be loaded with smokeless only? How about with triple seven?

I only shoot bpc bullets in rifle caliber. I have no reference specifically for pistol caliber bpc.

Still there is no harm in satisfying your own curiosity at how they perform, aside from a thorough scrubbing if leading occurs.

You will most def want to do some research into available bullet designs with lube grooves and then decide if you want to take the plunge into bullet casting or stick to ordering prelubed bullets such as these:

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/38_40.html
 
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bedbugbilly

New member
Hopefully, someone who shoots a converted .36 will come along and recommend a good lead bullet. One thing you have to remember is that the bore of your pistol - 36 caliber is first bored to .360 and then rifled. A standard 38 special has a bore of .357.

I shoot a lot of 38 special and reload for them - smokeless and BP. But, the bores are .357. I cast my own. Normally, if I can, I shoot them "as cast" (as they come from the mold). The several styles I mold (round nose, wad cutters and semi wadcutters - various grain weights) fall about .358 or a tad bigger. For BP, I finger lube the grooves with BP lube (beeswax/crisco mix) and then seat them. They seem to work well and keep the fouling under control.

You are basically going to have the same set-up as the 1851 Richard & Mason conversion - caliber wise that is. That conversion of the 1851 Navy broungt about the 38 Colt Short cartridge which used a "heeled" bullet to take up the larger bore size of the Navy. The 38 Colt short was the parent cartridge of the later 38 Colt Long which was the parent of the 38 Special which was the parent of the .357 Magnum.

If you buy a Uberti/Pietta "ready made" conversion - (as in Cimmaron, Taylor, etc) that is chambered in 38 Colt Long, 38 Special or .357 - example - a Richards & Mason Conversion, 1872 Open Top, etc. - the bores on those pistols are going to be .357 - the same as "modern" bores. Again, your conversion is going to have a larger bore.

You might want to look in to a hollow base design that will expand upon firing (just like a Minie Ball does in a rifled musket) that will expand and fit your larger bore better to grip the rifling. Depending on your chambers in your conversion cylinder, you may be able to bell your brass and fit a .358 or a tad larger into the casing and then when you crimp, have a cartridge that will slip in your chambers. I'm assuming that the conversion cylinder chambers are made to SAAMI specs for 38 spl.?

Genrerally, if your lead bullet is smaller than the bore, you open yourself up to getting "leading" and possibly decreased accuracy. If you're loading in smokeless - smokes lube should be sufficient. If you're loading BP, you want to use a BP lube to keep the fouling soft.

It's like anything else though, you just need to try different lead bullets to see how they shoot out of your particular revolver. What shoots good in one isn't always going to shoot well in another.

I've been shooting BP 38 spls. out of my New Vaquero of which the bore is .357. I've been using 158 gr Round Nose that I have cast out of a Lyman 358311 mold and they fall at .358 or a tad bigger. I started out using (I think) 18 grains (by weight) of 3F Goex and seating the bullet to the crimp groove with a moderate crimp. That gave me a "compressed load" but not "overly compressed". With that load, I was hitting low. I upped it to 20 grains (by weight) and still seated the same way which compressed the load more - had no issues with brass bulge and it was enough to raise my POI and seems to work well lout of that pistol. I just bought a new Uberty 4 3/4" .357 "Bisley" but haven't tried them in it yet - that pistol may shoot entirely different? I'm using standard CCI pistol primers - no ignition problems.

A lot of folks shoot the conversion cylinders and maybe someone can help you out on what particular bullet works best for them. You might go over on the Cast Boolit site as well. Check out the bullet vendors and see what you can find for a bullet or make a post there under the black powder cartridge threads to see what others may be using in their converted Navy caliber revolvers. If you can find a bullet that works well, then you have the option of getting a mold for it and casting your own.

Don't know if that was any help but I really think your biggest hurdle is going to be to find a good bullet that works out of a 38 cartridge casing well in a larger bore. You find that and you've got it made! Good luck! :)
 
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Hellgate

New member
The supposedly "go to" 38SPL bullet to use in the conversions is the swaged hollow based 148gr wadcutter. The swaged bullets are usually softer lead and more likely to expand to engage the rifling upon firing.

The bullet you chose is pretty close in that it is soft lead. You might want to rub a BP lube into the knurling.
 
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bedbugbilly

New member
Thabks for chiming in Hellgate - I couldn't remember if it was the HB 148 gr WC that was being used for that or not.

Somewhere, I remember seeing a thread on a forum that showed a HB round nose. I tried to find it but wasn't able to scare it up. If I remember correctly, it was a hollow base round nose that weighed in at around 148 to 150 grains. It may have been from a custom made mold.

I would imagine that a person could take a single cavity mold like and Ideal/Lyman 358242 (121 gr) or a 358311 (158 gr) and customize the mold - bore the blocks for a base pin and make a "hollow base pin" that would give those particular bullets a skirted hollow base. With a vertical mill and a lathe it wouldn't be difficult at all. Or, I'm sure there are other bullet designs that could have the mold blocks altered to accept a base pin.

The nice thing about the HB 148 gr. WC is that it is a common bullet that can easily be obtained from a number of suppliers.

Nickel Plated - keep us up to date on your journey with the reloading/bullets and how they work out of your pistol. Interesting stuff!
 
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Nickel Plated

New member
Bedbugbilly - I kinda feel bad saying this now after having you type all that but I actually swapped the barrel out for a proper .357cal barrel when I did the conversion. :eek: Specifically so I wouldn't have to worry about using belted or hollow base ammo. I ordered a spare barrel intended for the Uberti factory conversions. And just installed it in place of the original.
I'm not sure if the conversion cylinders are made to SAAMI specs. Didn't say anything about them. I just know Kirst says they are 38 Special cylinders and to only use black powder or cowboy smokeless loads in them. No modern smokeless ammo. And I know Kirst is a generally well regarded company so I have little reason to question their instructions.

I will be using 3F Schuetzen black powder for my loads. No substitutes around here.
The Hornady site says they use wax on their bullets and refer to them as "Cowboy" bullets in the description. So I'm hoping the lube that's on there should be alright for black powder.
http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Cal-.358-158-gr-SWC/
In the worst case I can always clean them off and relube them with SPG.

I most likely will get into casting my own bullets. But for now I figured I wanted to keep things simple and just buy some so I can roll up some ammo to shoot.
 
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noelf2

New member
More than likely the bullets will be just fine with the lube on them. I've shot black powder cartridges using 250gr .452 hard lead bullets with smokeless lube on them and the cleaning took a couple passes with hoppes 9 and a brass brush after mopping the bore with soapy water. It's a bit of a hassle, but doable. Another option for you is to get some Trailboss smokeless powder to use instead of real BP. That's pretty much all I use in my 45lc conversion now. Would work great with your .358 bullets as well.
 
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Hellgate

New member
Nickelplated,
I use the Lyman 358311 158gr RN lubed with a BP lube (my formula is 50/50 deer tallow & beeswax but BW/lard or SPG will do too). The bullet carries enough lube for a pistol but I need to put a couple discs of beeswax medium brood core (sheets of beeswax sold at craft stores to be rolled around a wick to make candles) over the mouths of the charged cases before seating for the rifle.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/Item/000152670311

It's the standard old time 38 SPL service bullet. You can get it in single, double or 4 cavity molds used.
 
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bedbugbilly

New member
Nickel Plated - not a problem! That's even better if your bore is .357 as it will sure save a lot of fooling around trying to find a bullet that will work well.

I use the 358311 Lyman bullet a lot - one of my favorites. I've never tried the BP without BP lube but hey, give 'er a try and see what happens. The most you'll end up with is maybe having to address the fouling sooner or it could work out well.

I fingeer lube my bullets - I don't have a lubersizer. The biggest problem I encounter is when I load the BP rounds, the lube tends to gum up my dies - especially my seating die. I load on a 4 hole Lee Classic Turret so I'm thinking of just getting another set of Lee dies and a turret plate and set it up so it's dedicated to BP only. I also have the option of using an Ideal 310 hand loader as well which I like to do once in a while "just 'cause" - I kind of like doing things the "old way" sometimes.

noelf2 - I envy you! I have tried to get some Trailboss to try for a long time. Every time I stop at a couple of LGS, they either just got it in and it's already gone or they didn't get any at all. Talking with one of the salesmen at one of the stores, he said that quite a few are using it and seem to really like it.

Right now, I'm limited to Bulls Eye, Red Dot, Unique and 700X. A couple of weeks ago, I hit it just right and was at two stores just after their powder came in. I was able to get a lb of each of the above at each of the stores so I'm set for quite a while now and consider myself lucky.

Another bullet that Nickel Plated might try sometime is the Lyman 358 242 which is a 121 gr Round Nose. I use that quite a bit as well especially for just general plinking. Saves a little on the lead and still seems to work well. COAL is the same with that bullet as with the 358 311.
 
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Nickel Plated

New member
Been looking at some bullet molds lately. I think the Lee molds might be good for me. I know the aluminum tends to not last as long as the iron Lymans but I don't see myself casting THAT much so I think it'll hold up. And at a third of the price, if it wears out, you buy another.
Which of these would you guys recommend?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/17...e-38-s-and-w-358-diameter-158-grain-flat-nose

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/78...s-and-w-358-diameter-150-grain-1-ogive-radius

The flat nose looks like it has a bigger lube groove, good for that black powder lube. But I do see myself buying a 38/357 lever gun in the future and the round nose bullets tend to feed better in levers. Unless the flat nose will feed just as well.
 
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Hellgate

New member
I had the RNFP mold but the bullets didn't feed reliably enough in my two Rossi '92s which are notorious for being OAL sensitive. I hear Marlins and '73s are less so.
 
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bedbugbilly

New member
Nickel - nothing wrong with a Lee aluminum mold. They are inexpensive and work well. I've cast with Lee molds for many years - everything from round ball to gas check 8mm.

I have a number of molds makes - Lee, Ideal/Lyman, RCBS, OHaus, Palmetto, NOE, etc. - some aluminum blocks and some steel. If you treat them right, they'll last for years.

If you are looking for Lee - take a gander at Titan Reloading - Doc Hoy put me on to them and I've purchased a lot of Lee reloading stuff from them - good folks and great prices.

I've been casting for 50 years but not "high tech". I use an old Ideal pot, a Lyman bottom pour dipper and a single propane/LP gas hotplate. I have two pots - one for my ML bullets - RB & Minie - lead and one for my cartridge reloading - I mainly use "range lead" for those.

You better watch out though . . . molds are like guns . . . you get one and then another one follows you home. The next thing you know they're breeding! :eek: :)
 
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