"Some people just shouldn't have guns"

WyldOne

New member
Okay TFL'ers, I need your help to get me thinking straight again. :) (But please don't flame me)

So last night/this morning...around 2:30am, our neighbors upstairs had quite a loud fight. They're two females, I'd say in their 30s. They have lived on the third floor (we live on the second floor) for five years.

I was laying in bed sleeping, when our dog started barking. At first I was annoyed, but as I continued to lay in bed, I heard two people arguing. I sat immediately upright when I thought I heard a gunshot (um, no, no, not paranoid...). It was a door slamming shut. I laid in bed a little while longer, listening to them fight, telling myself that I was going to call the cops. Then I heard one of the women screaming "call the cops!!!" repeatedly. So my mind was made up.

So I grab my cellphone and head out of my room (I don't know why--I just did) and my roommate and the dog was standing with the door open a little bit, and I realize that the woman was screaming at my roommate to call the cops (I had thought she was just screaming at her roommate, kinda mockingly). So I hand the lady the cellphone, and I guess she doesn't know how to use it or something, she tries to call 911 and then hands it back to me.

Long story short, I eventually called the cops (from our landline, thanks to that TFL thread). But my roommate and I were talking after the insanity had passed. And she said, "Some people just shouldn't have guns." She also pointed out that, if one of those women had had a gun, it probably would have been fired. Not everyone is going to be a responsible TFL-type gun owner; some people will shoot guns in a fit of rage.

I nodded in quiet agreement, but her comments kept me awake for the rest of the night. I'm sure they had knives in their kitchen; yet they didn't use them. They didn't use a baseball bat, or a shovel, or anything like that. But if they had had a gun, my gut instinct tells me that one of them would either be dead or seriously wounded. Or maybe someone in my apartment would be dead or wounded (what if the gun was pointed toward the floor when it had been shot?)

I also know, however, that there probably is no such law that could screen out the kind of person who would use a gun if angry. But, I do understand what's behind these gun control laws.

So, what I need from you guys, is....Talk some sense into me? Please? I know I'm wrong, but I can't see why.

:)
 

Monkeyleg

New member
Wyldone, I think you've already answered your own question. They had access to knives and probably other objects that could be used as weapons, but didn't go for them. If the fight was going to get deadly, one or the other would have used something as a weapon.
 

KSFreeman

New member
Things I have seen used as murder weapons in my LE daze:

1. big vase;
2. fork;
3. bare hands;
4. tire iron;
5. baseball bat;
6. steak knife;
7. half block of concrete;
8. big, old stick (two drunks down by the river);
9. a mixing bowl;
10. in a county south of me, someone used a bowling ball.

The silly "crimes of passion" nonsense. If they want to kill, they will. A firearm is an inert mechanical device. It possesses no mind-controlling powers outside of television and movies.

An armed society (or an apartment) is a polite society. They would not argue and carry on like trash if they were both armed. Nothing like the awareness of new holes to make a person "Eddie Haskell right up."
 

Al Thompson

Staff Alumnus
Interestingly, most hard core anti-gun sheep tend to cling to the argument that "if so-and-so" had accesss to a gun, they would lose control and shoot someone. Several have used themselves as examples... :eek: We went through this drivel when our CCW bill passed three years ago.

I truely believe Col. Cooper had it right when he noted that skilled shooters tend to be in control of themselves, hence their higher than average good behavior. (paraphrased)

Food for thought.

(KS, ya gotta quit reading my replies before I can post them)

:eek: :D :p
 

flinch_of_gt

New member
Some reading that might be insightful would be "Why They Kill" by Richard Rhodes. We harp about mindset here at TFL, but he makes a strong case that violent persons are perfectly capable of using ordinary items. Their mindset is the key.

The odds are that both of your upstairs neighbors already have enough arrests to permanently disqualify them from any sort of RKBA.

Even so, if either one wanted a gun, they could probably get one through illegal channels.
 

Zander

Moderator
You probably still have some residual effects of what I described long ago on certain political fora as Gun Voodoo (tm).

It's the notion that inanimate, nonsentient objects [firearms, et alia] have the power to change the mind's processes.

Not everyone is going to be a responsible TFL-type gun owner; some people will shoot guns in a fit of rage.
Yep, some folks will use 5,000 lb. SUVs, filet knives, softball bats and even chainsaws [it's true...happened right here in my state] to kill other folks.

Your dissonance [cognitive hangover] is the result of years of listening to specious arguments from anti-gun fanatics.

Aren't you glad you can learn the truth here? :cool:
 

Monkeyleg

New member
The last few comments echo an experience of mine. 15 years ago I had a boss that absolutely anyone would agree was the most intolerable, unyielding, tyrannical, ignorant employer on the planet. The closest I've ever come to killing someone was with her. We'd just had a rather heated argument and, after she turned away, I started to grab a chair to bash her over the head. (Not my usual demeanor; I was driven past the point of reason). Fortunately, I caught myself. But that chair would have made for a deadly weapon, and it was very accessible.
 

WyldOne

New member
It's the notion that inanimate, nonsentient objects [firearms, et alia] have the power to change the mind's processes.

Well, I don't think that merely holding a gun would make either of these two go from not wanting to become violent, to becoming violent.

I think that it would have provided an easy way for someone already behaving violently (this started when one roommate locked the other out of their apartment; then, they were threatening each other and it sounded like they were throwing things). More like, an opportunity to escalate the situation.

As far as the argument that, someone that wants to kill can use almost anything to kill...Well, I'm not sure that either of these women necessarily had the intention of murder. I highly doubt that they were thinking, "What can I kill her with? Well, I don't have a gun, so I guess I can't kill her".

So I'm not sure how relevant the knives (etc) part is/was. I guess the reason that I put it there, is because I've been coming around on the domestic violence issue--which is pretty irrelevant to this specific situation, but it was in my head.

The sad thing is, I think this situation pushed my roommate from sorta-on-the-fence, to being anti.
 

Blackhawk

New member
The sad thing is, I think this situation pushed my roommate from sorta-on-the-fence, to being anti.
Sad, indeed.

However, you'll be working through the "what-ifs" of this incident yourself, and it might be helpful for both of you to do it together.

For example, I think it's a safe generalization to say that CCL holders are less volatile than they were before they got their licenses. Gunnies are also far more aware and careful about not only the dangers of guns and carelessly handling them, but also the unintendended consequences to their liberty and wealth if they screw up. Gun owners ARE more responsible, almost like young parents are compared to their foot-loose-and-fancy-free contemporaries.

I've seen plenty of testosterone fueled confrontations in my time, and been in my share. I've also noticed that they don't escalate beyond discussions about disagreements when the parties are mature (adult) enough to safely handle guns. Sadly, that doesn't have as much to do with age as it does with training and the attitude you must have to be around guns.
 

KSFreeman

New member
Giz, uh, sorry, I think. I use my secrets of the Mall Ninja to stop time, run over to your house, use the secrets of the Mall Ninja to to perform a mindmeld, steal your thoughts, run back to Indiana, and type my response.

Actually, if I did have the secrets of the Mall Ninja and could stop time, I think I would just stay in South Carolina and disappear into sorority row at the University. Geez, what gorgeous women. This one time, at a NADA conference in Charleston . . . .
 

Bud Helms

Senior Member
WyldOne:
I also know, however, that there probably is no such law that could screen out the kind of person who would use a gun if angry. But, I do understand what's behind these gun control laws.
The "but" in there bothers me. Got some conflicting logic working?

There's this ...
Well, I don't think that merely holding a gun would make either of these two go from not wanting to become violent, to becoming violent.
But then ...
I think that it would have provided an easy way for someone already behaving violently ... More like, an opportunity to escalate the situation.
But that's the same thing as going "... from not wanting to become violent, to becoming violent." Isn't it? Which one of those last two quotes do you believe?

And lastly ...
... I've been coming around on the domestic violence issue--which is pretty irrelevant to this specific situation, ...
This sounds like it had all the signs of a "domestic". Does sharing an apartment count?
 

Apple a Day

New member
This is bothering me

Okay, KSF, I gotta know... a MIXING BOWL? Was this used as a blunt instrument? What was this thing made of?
I know this is a morbid question but I am curious!
 

glock glockler

New member
WyldOne, I agree with your roommate: Some people should not have guns. I'm not saying that I think they should be legally prevented from bearing arms, I just think they should not own them because they are idiots and they realize they are idiots.

I read about a guy who got spooked when a house on his block was broken into and the family was held prisoner while the thugs gang-raped the mother and 14yr old daughter, and beat the father to a pulp. He was so spooked that he immediately went out and bought a revolver and kept it loaded and cocked in his closet. His young son and his best friend found the gun and you know the rest of the story.

This guy had no inherent interest in firearms and didnt even bother to learn how to properly use and store them, he only bought the gun to alleviate the emotional anxiety he felt after the horrific crime upon his neighbors. I hope that a person this stupid would realize that he's a moron and stay away from getting a gun because he knows that he can't respect it.

This is very different then you're roomie wanting to have some type of elimination process where she can decide who gets to bear arms and who cant, which is actually not to far off from the situation you carrently face in Boston where you don't think the cops will allow you to bear arms because you're one of those wacky WTO protesters. Ah, how that slope gets slippery when the boys in blue decide whether or not you can defend your life because they dont like your kind or you're not one of their preffered elite.

At that point, how is your roomie acting any differently then the fool who bought a gun he was not preparred to own, by making an illogical decision to alleviate emotional anxiety?
 

KSFreeman

New member
Apple, mixing bowl used as blunt instrument to back of the cabeza, then as cutting tool to the throat with a shard.

Just remembered I forgot rope!!! How could I forget rope or fishing line to kill the old lady? Getting old.:(
 

Zander

Moderator
The sad thing is, I think this situation pushed my roommate from sorta-on-the-fence, to being anti.
Why? I just don't see the connection. Perhaps you can enlighten us.

Sensop...

"This sounds like it had all the signs of a "domestic". Does sharing an apartment count?"

Ah...very astute! If they're just roomies, no problem. If they're lesbians having sex with each other...uh-oh.

Someone(s) just lost a basic human right...
 

Chuck Dye

New member
Good grief! Am I missing something? If the initial description is complete and accurate, there was nothing more than dueling hissy fits. How does anyone get from that to a lethal situation? I think a serious chain of non sequitors is in action here.

Yes, I am in danger of waxing sarcastic here, but haven't yet. I JUST DO NOT GET THE CONNECTION FROM THE STORY TOLD.
 

Don Gwinn

Staff Emeritus
Some people shouldn't have oxygen. There just isn't much you can do about it, and it's hard to tell them from the people who should have it until it's too late. Too much for human beings to do.

(EDIT: Removed something patently stupid; my apologies to Zander for not reading closely.)
 

Byron Quick

Staff In Memoriam
If a person's behavior is such that they cannot be trusted to be armed; that is evidence that they are not fit to be free in society.

There is no person who has been saved because I was temporarily without a gun. On the other hand, if I decided to kill, safety would not consist of depriving me of firearms.

A cousin of mine was murdered by a couple of punks. The murder weapon was improvised from the victim's bootlaces, a concrete block, and a nearby pond. Didn't take a gun, just the malice and a bit of improvisation.

I know! Let's ban bootlaces, concrete blocks, and anything bigger than a mud puddle...hooray! A safer world.:rolleyes:
 
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