Some interesting data on barrel length and cylinder gaps

Jim March

New member
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/gaptests.html

In this set of tests by Ballistics By The Inch, they rigged an Uberti in .357Mag so that not only could the barrel length be altered, but also the cylinder gap between .006, .001" and "zero gap", with shims.

I do have some issues with their methodology:

1) They didn't test .38s in .38Spl chambers - everything was done on a .357. That might matter some.

2) While their selection of .38 and 38+P ammo was excellent, they have basically ZERO high-performance 357 ammo. The closest they come is Federal's 158gr load and even that's pretty wimpy. All the rest are either downloaded (Cor-Bon DPX isn't full power) or practice grade. There's not a single high-performance 125gr, even from a major manufacturer. Buffalo Bore was tested in 38 and 38+P, not present in 357. Very annoying.

3) There's too many "outlier cases" where in one particular load and barrel length, you'll get a "flyer" - often in places that don't make any sense at all. Examples include Cor-Bon's 38+P 125gr at the 16" point, Buffalo Bore 38+P 125gr at 3" where .006" does well only at 3", Cor-Bon 357 DPX at 5" (*** happened there?) and more. The most serious is the Black Hills 38 Long Colt data at 13" - that spike is just not possible. Damned if I know what happened, but, something did.

On the plus side, their data for the legendary BB 158+P load starts in the very high 900 range from a 2":

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/buffalobore3.html

Italian barrels aren't as good for speed as Ruger and later-model S&W wheelgun barrels, so with a better gun than that Uberti you should see BB's claimed 1,000fps from a 2" barrel. We also see a huge jump of about 75fps from the 2" to 3" barrel in this load - out of a Ruger or recent-vintage S&W we might see 100fps. Oh, and 38Spl chambers might make the extra difference to an honest 2" barrel 1,000fps load.

Those issues aside, some clear trends emerge:

a) The difference between a .001" gap and .006" gap isn't much, but in a 2" barrel with 38+P ammo the 30fps or so average difference may be enough to cause a round to expand, or not.

b) The difference between 2" and 3" barrel velocities across the various combat rounds is often very high - up around 100fps in some cases. THAT is enough to affect expansion, I guarandamntee it. All of the makers ought to be doing more 3" guns, and the 3" Ruger SP101 ought to be selling better than it is. That extra inch of barrel will make a difference in concealment only if you're doing pocket carry - for anything else (ankle, shoulder, IWB, "belly band", jacket pocket or fanny pack) a 3" version will be only fractionally harder to conceal in most cases.

I have long been a proponent of small gaps in snubby revolvers, and as far as I'm concerned this data supports that concept. I've also been pointing out that 3" ballistics are usually better than 2" by a useful margin and again, I see a lot of evidence in favor of that idea too.
 

357 Terms

New member
I too have always been annoyed at BBI and how their data skews the difference between the 38 and the 357.
seems like they are continuing that trend.

Interesting data though, a good deal of difference with some of those loads and a slight change in the gap, surprising.
 
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laytonj1

New member
I do have some issues with their methodology:

Maybe you could volunteer to supply the proper ammunition, guns and supervision so they can do the test properly.

Jim
 
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Hal

New member
Italian barrels aren't as good for speed as Ruger and later-model S&W wheelgun barrels
Sources for that please?
I'm curious where that information comes from.

I also noted the Python 6" used gave consistant lower velocities than the 4" S&W.
I find that somewhat curious.

And what's up with the 2" Rhino and the CorBon DPX - 1704 fps?
I'm sure that's a typo.
 
the 30fps or so average difference may be enough to cause a round to expand, or not.

That was the driving force behind development of the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot for short barrels to replace the 158 grain LSWCHP FBI load. Three inch barrel, no problem. Two inch barrel, an expansion problem existed in heavy clothing.

Ditto on the three inch barrel comparative analysis. That one inch makes a world of difference.
 

Jim Downey

New member
I too have always been annoyed at BBI and how their data skews the difference between the 38 and the 357.

Well, gee, sorry that we haven't met your standards with our free data. :rolleyes:

Hal - thanks for mentioning that. I'll take a look - we just relaunched the site with all the new data and are still trying to catch the minor glitches. Oh, and I think my Python needs to be sent to Colt for a rehab - it has consistently gotten pretty low numbers in all our tests. Edited to add: Yup, the middle two numbers were transposed - fixed. If anyone finds another suspect number, please send me a PM, or use the contact info on the site.

Otherwise, I agree with Jim March's comments overall. Yeah, there are some weird jumps in the data, and where possible we've tried to either provide an explanation or are willing to double-check our data - we recognize that we are fallible, and have always tried to be honest about our methods and mistakes.
 
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Jim March

New member
Sources for that please?
I'm curious where that information comes from.

It's a very consistent trend. Older S&W barrels seem to match the Python. Rugers of any era seem to "spit fast", consistently. Taurus will be below the speed marks of both Rugers and newer S&Ws as will Uberti and other Italian barrels.

Some of the best data is all over Buffalo Bore's page. For example, here's some apples-to-apples comparisons for their interesting new "woods carry 38+P":
1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)

Source: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291

Same barrel length. Not only is the Ruger spitting faster, it's doing it with a 357 chamber which should have been a deficit over the 38 chamber on the vintage S&W. So this is closer to a 100fps disparity in Ruger's favor, or more.

Here's a recent-vintage S&W 4" beating or at least matching a 5" barrel vintage S&W:

2. 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps

3. 5 inch S&W model 27

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast =1398 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1380 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1457 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1543 fps

...and then when a 6" Ruger joins the party, it matches the curve of the 4" modern S&W because you're supposed to get about 50fps from every extra inch of barrel and it's a near-perfect 100fps gain:

4. 6 inch Ruger GP 100

a. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1707 fps

Source: http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

Here's data from BB's new 140gr Barnes all-copper hollowpoint in 357Mag cases - and Tim at BB describes the difference himself:
1947 fps—Marlin mod 1894, 18 inch barrel
1518 fps—S&W mod 27, 5 inch barrel
1519 fps—S&W MT Gun, 4 inch barrel
1436 fps—S&W mod 66, 3 inch barrel
1385 fps—S&W mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel

You’ll notice the newer S&W 4 inch Mt. Gun, gave higher velocities than the older 5 inch mod 27 S&W. This is because of different internal barrel dynamics and chamber dimensions of the newer gun. In general, the newer S&W revolvers are made to tighter tolerances than those of 30+ years ago.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=287

Now, as to Ubertis. Somewhere I've seen data on some of these Buffalo Bore loads shot out of Uberti SAA clones, and it closely tracked the vintage S&W data. I've been trying to find it for this post and honestly, I can't. Sorry. But I can at least show you that this trend exists.

I'm not criticizing BBTI for using an Uberti (basically to destruction :)) to keep costs down - it's a good move if tests like this are to be done at all.
 

Dfariswheel

New member
Possible causes of lower velocity from a Python are:

The Python has a faster twist rifling than most other guns.
Pythons had a tapered bore that got tighter toward the muzzle.

These would probably tend to slow the bullet down slightly.
 

Double J

New member
I would think a .357 Magnum chamber, being slightly longer, would if anything, give a slightly higher velocity when using .38 special loads.
 

Hal

New member
Jim,
I believe in your enthusiasm, you're overlooking some key elements.
Those velocities on the BB links don't say if that's high, low or average & if average, what the standard deviation is & the total number of rounds fired to determine those figures.

For example:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Range Evaluation - Ruger GP100.htm
Steve always did a wonderful job of listing real meanigful information from which a valid conclusion could be drawn.

If you browse through all his range reports, you'll find it's quite common to have a 70 to 100 fps spread from the highest to the lowest velocites in a 10 shot string.
That's 10 shots of the same ammunition fired through the same gun.

I don't want to accuse BB of anythng other than aggressive marketing.
However.
Their published velocity figures are not valid data sets w/out id'ing waht those listed velocities represent.
 
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skidder

New member
I want that CIA letter opener!:rolleyes:

The OP mentioned the advantage of 3" over the 2" in the sp101. First of all the percentage of speed loss is greater towards the 2" mark than the 3" mark (according to the current trend of the chart). With that said, the 2" sp101 is actually 2.25" making the first 1/4" your highest percentage of loss. When you average out the three examples for speed loss between 2" & 3" barrels you get 73.3333333 fps. Now with the trend showing a greater speed loss towards the first 1/4" we would be more accurate to divide this repeating average by 1/3 giving us a more accurate estimate of 56.41025641 fps across the board (the three cylinder gaps tested). Then if we factor in the .81" more of sp101 sticking out of my back pocket....... I would have to say, who gives a damn?? Lets have a few beers and shoot some cans.:D:D
 
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