Some insight to why a light barrel and heavy barrel can be equally accurate.

[Mystro]

I have been digesting many books over the last year from authors like Jack O'Connor and the like and about 20 years of the shooters bible. After 30 years of hunting and competitive pistol shooting, multiple Gunsite visits, etc...I still am amazed all the intricacies I am still learning about firearms and its wonderful.

Some myths that seem to be widely accepted but are not true....

Myth #1
A light weight barrel is not as accurate as a heavy barrel. This is not true. Any high quality lightweight barrel will be as accurate as any heavy barrel with in the first 4 shots all factors being equal. I never believed this until I saw it for myself. The reason is that it is easier to produce a cheaper heavy barrel rifle that is accurate. The stiffer barrel vibrates less and is less subseptable to heating up or showing a poor barrel to stock bedding. Many cheaper lightweight barrels or heavy weight barrels are not strait to start with. the difference is when the light weight barrel gets hot, they will start to unlink and start to string their groups. The heavy weigh barrel just takes more shots to see this. Therefore the quality of steel and manufacturing of a lightweight barrel has to be much higher than a thicker barrel. A lighter barrel must be bedded better than a heavier barrel because of the increased vibrations and fluctuations. This why cheaper heavy weight barrel guns like my Savage seems to be a tack driver even though the stock quality is rubbish. A well known custom gunsmith stated "it takes more skill to make a custom lightweight sportster rifle than it does a heavy weight barrel bench gun." This is why a high quality barrel isn't as sensitive to various bullet weights for repetitive accuracy.
A lightweight is just as accurate as a heavy weight barrel and will out shoot a poor executed heavy weight barrel. There is just more factors in manufacturing a light weight barrel that has to be done correctly for a high quality light weight barrel to shoot as accurate as a high quality heavy weight barrel.

I found this very interesting and wanted to pass it along.

 

[jmr40]

A lightweight barrel is just as accurate as a heavy barrel. But a heavy barrel is more forgiving of less than perfect form. Kinda like riding a bike with training wheels. Beginning shooters will have more success early with a heavy gun and barrel. Once you learn how to shoot, you can do almost as well with a lighter barrel. For extreme precision however, the heavier barrel is still more forgiving of shooter error.

For a hunting rifle, I'll take the lighter barrel and gun every time, but I understand why varmit hunters, long range target shooters, and snipers want every edge they can get from heavier barrels.

 

[Mystro]

Very true. Its amazing the amount of misinformation the younger guys hear on forums and gun shops. Many would believe they must tote around a 13lbs bull barrel bench gun to get super accurate groups at 300 yards. Its them, not the rifle that is causing the inconsistencies and unless you hunt with a bench in the woods, they are in for a big surprise. The latest super magnum in a 15 lbs rifle with custom ammo can't make up for poor shooters form and crappy trigger control. Too high of a caliber will only lead to bad habits in flinching especially for new shoots with a iffy shooting form to start with. You can't cheat practice and experience. No one stresses the fundamentals anymore and its in vogue to look for the easy way out. I think spending more time practicing with a good quality sportster weight rifle and good optics, they would be amazed what they can do even hunting varmints. Wanting instant success by using shooting aids cheats the marksman from perfecting their form and their true potential. Too much time is focused on the equipment and not the guy behind the equipment.

 

[trg42wraglefragle]

What is considered a light weight barrel?
Is it relative to the caliber of the barrel?

For example, I have a Tikka T3 sporter in 223 and a friend has the same in 308.
The barrels have the same external diameter but obviously different internal diameter. After about 3 or 4 shots his barrel will be quite warm, but mine after 10 shots still isn't too bad.
Then another mate has a heavy barrel 284 Winchester and after 10 shots his is almost as warm as mine.

So would mine still be considered a light weight barrel or is it then a medium barrel?

Not that it makes any difference in the real word, was just wondering.

 

[Mystro]

It really doesn't matter what caliber. We are comparing two of the same calibers in two different weight barrels. Most consider a lightweight barrel a feather weight or sportster barrel. Caliber was never brought up so I don't think it matters. There was several pages on calibers that tend to be more inherently accurate than others. That was interesting. It had to do with bullet to case ratio in size. Certain necked down cases tendered to be more inherently accurate.

Another accuracy factor was Rate of barrel twist, bullet weight and distance of shooting all are determining factors in accuracy.

Did you know a Winchester 270 130grain bullet shot out of a 1-10 twist barrel is spinning 3000 times a second as it travels to the target.

 

[Revoltella]

For example, I have a Tikka T3 sporter in 223 and a friend has the same in 308.
The barrels have the same external diameter but obviously different internal diameter. After about 3 or 4 shots his barrel will be quite warm, but mine after 10 shots still isn't too bad.

Your friend's .308 is burning almost twice as much powder as you are. It's going to bet hotter, faster.

Your other friend with the heavy barrel, it just has more mass to heat up.

 

[Tempest 455]

I've got a Savage .223 lightweight barrel and it's crazy accurate w/ handloads. My son was bugging me to shoot it in a 600 yard F class match as we have been doing to 1,000 yard matches w/ .308 and having fun.

I had to explain to him while is very accurate for the first 5-10 shots, it would be a real problem trying to shoot 20 in a row for score with it.

 

[Bart B.]

If ones barrel is properly made and fitted to the rifle's receiver, those of equal high quality but all sorts of weights, shapes and lengths will all shoot equally accurate. That's when fired once every 20 to 30 seconds for several dozen shots and the barrel temperature goes from ambient to hot enough to cause second degree burns on human skin.

Those thinking the above's not true, then please explain how arsenal test barrels shooting a couple hundred shots that fast with match ammo have all bullets land on the target 600 yards away all inside 6 inches. And how about those skinny M14NM barrels 22" long have shot the same ammo just as accurate as 26" long heavy target barrels for 20 to 30 shots in 20 minutes; under 4 inches at 600 yards.

 

[tobnpr]

Why do I see only very heavy contour barrels at benchrest competitions?

 

[Mystro]

Those guys want heavy guns for stability to correct any shooting errors. The heavier the better since they don't carry their guns. They also are shooting multiple shots and heavier barrels can be shot longer without heat effecting their accuracy. Its the same princable why 3D Archery shooters shoot with longer stabilizers.

 

[old roper]

We all have different accuracy standard and most of us look at real world accuracy and what we shoot.

Most match rifles NBRSA,IBS and even NRA have weight limits and are build to meet that so chances of finding sporter type barrel may be very limited.

It's the same with archery as was mention you have a match were you are limit to one stabilizer max 12" long and no lens or lights.

 

[reynolds357]

Yall can theorize all you want, but you will not convince me of your point of view until I start seeing some light barrel rifles win some bench rest matches. BR rifles use heavy barrels for a reason.

 

[Mystro]

Its not a theory or speculation. Do some investigating and read some books on the subject. They all will confirm this to be true. The problem is, no one does any formal research on firearms or ballistics from industry textbooks. Its a science and needs to be treated as such. There are so many great books from the 1950's and up on the subject by many authors. I can assure you not much has changed fundamentally in 64 years on the topic.


Here is my feather weight Winchester 270 from a bench. It has a 22" fine tapered barrel. It is a top tier Winchester custom with a match crown but it still applies as having a light weight barrel. Multiple brands of ammo on less than idea conditions with a 9X scope. All shot from sandbags and 300 yards was really pushing a 9x scope for precision shooting. (I have a Leupold VX6 3x18 coming to make things really interesting)



3 shot group @ 100 yrds




Notice the 2 groups of 2 shots. I took 2 shots let the barrel cool down and took 2 more shots. There is no reason all 4 of those shots couldn't group under 1" at 300 yards if I had better optics.

 

[reynolds357]

All the top bench rest shooters in the United States need to read some books about why they should really be shooting light weight barrels? I understand the theories about harmonics,proper stress relieving, and heat dissipation. I have a couple of custom 1000 yard rifles built with standard contour barrels due to the fact they shoot in a class that necessitates them to make weight. They shoot good. They actually shoot real good. Having said that, they do not shoot as good as my BR rifles built with 28" and 30" heavy bull Liljas. If the light weight barrels would shoot the same groups as the bulls, we would build our 100 and 200 yard rifles with light weight barrels. It would be nice to have that extra weight to put into stocks, scopes, and even a rediculously stiff action.
Your 300 yard group is a great group for a hunting rifle. Its almost as big as the 10 shot groups my heavy barrel prints at 1K.

 

[Mystro]

I think you are missing the "all things being equal" they will shoot the same. I would sudjest that a 30" bull barrel might be the same ration as a 22" feather weight barrel to thickness verses length. A purpose built rifle isn't quite the same as two hunting rifles built the same other than barrel thickness weights. These comparisons are to explane the practical differences when using and choosing a hunting rifle.

Please post some 1000yard target groups. I never get to see target results of a 1000yards.

 

[Bart B.]

Mystro, those few-shot groups at 300 yards are meaningful only if they can be equalled in size within 10% for several sessions.

To all readers, if a 22" 2.1 pound featherweight, 24" 3.4 pound standard and 26" 4.4 pound medium barrel could all have the same resonant frequency they whip at for every round fired, would you consider them all to be of equal stiffness?

Note that the frequency a barrel whips at is probably the most repeatable thing happening in a rifle when a shot's fired. Each one does it exactly the same for each shot.

Why heavy barrels in competition? Grade school physics.

They recoil less for a given cartridge while the bullet goes through them on its way to the muzzle. Heavy rifle barrels move less off the axis they were aimed at when the firing pin smacks the primer to where they point when the bullet exits. No firearm bore axis points exactly to a spot above the desired bullet impact point equal to bullet drop plus sight height above the line of fire at the muzzle when zeroed at any range.

One more time; properly built rifles do not walk shot impact as their barrel heats up.

 

[Mystro]

I can tell you my 2 shot groups (on orange target)are different for lack of magnification in optics. The one red target was tiny for a 300yard shot but that was all I had that day. I agree a one shot attempt at a group is valued, but ALOT more meaningful if it can be repeated. Note, I even used two different brands off ammo to furthers complicate the variables. That's why I posted two different 300 yard groups and 100 yard groups from different days. A properly seated barrel will vibrate the same frequency every time regardless of thickness. The problem with many barrels changing poi when they get hot is because many barrels are not manufactured the best they should or could have been. It is certainly a real world factor for many owners. The practical knowledge in a hunting firearm is still applied to what has been written about this over the years.
Why a few fight this information when so much consistent information by multiple sources has been written about it over the years is puzzling????

I don't think I can directly scan the passage in my books that we have been discussing without breaking forum rules. Its right there in black and white. I don't think these multiple distinguished experts are all wrong on this premiss.

Kudos,
This has been one of more stimulating conversations we have had on the forum for a while. It certainly is better than brand A or brand B rifle to buy.

 

[reynolds357]

Mystro, Barts explanation sounds good to me. What I can tell you is you will not find any thin barrel rifles in bench rest unless it is a class where weight necessitates it.
A thousand yard group looks like a group shot at any other yardage. Postting a picture of it online is pointless because if I wanted to be dishonest I could post a picture of a crappy 200 yard group and write 1000yd on it. Posting pictures proves nothing.
I have a Savage ultra lightweight 6.5 Creedmoor that will shoot .25" at 100 3 shot groups. Past that, the heat gets it and it starts flying. Why? Main reason is the barrel is not match grade and the stress relieving is half a.. A thin barrel can shoot, but all things being equal, it will not out shoot a heavy barrel.

 

[Bart B.]

reynolds, all things being equal exept diameter, a thin barrel will equal a thick one; accuracy wise. If not, then all things are not equal.

What things do you think make an otherwise equal thin barrel shoot less accurate than a thick one?

 

[reynolds357]

The fact you do not ever see thin barrels being shot in bench rest classes where weight will allow a heavy barrel.