I was watching some cop show and they compared the primer strike on a case from a new murder to the primer strike on a case from an old murder and claimed they had a match. Because the case brands were the same and the primer strike was in the same location they felt they could solve both murders. I don't believe this would guarantee that both cases were fired from the same gun. What do you guys say?
Solving a murder with a case
- Thread starter AL45
- Start date
Under perfect conditions yes. That is why most handguns now come with a fired case. Manufacturers are required to send you one, and one is kept on file. It is theoretically possible to match the fired case to a particular gun.
That said, the last time I saw anything about it there has never been an actual case solved by doing this outside of TV. Over time the guns chamber and firing pin wear. The case fired when the gun was new will probably not match the same gun after several thousand firings, maybe a lot less. Plus many folks buy aftermarket barrels or firing pins making ID impossible.
It is generally thought of as a waste of time and I think the concept is being phased out.
That said, the last time I saw anything about it there has never been an actual case solved by doing this outside of TV. Over time the guns chamber and firing pin wear. The case fired when the gun was new will probably not match the same gun after several thousand firings, maybe a lot less. Plus many folks buy aftermarket barrels or firing pins making ID impossible.
It is generally thought of as a waste of time and I think the concept is being phased out.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
But theoretical "ballistic fingerprinting" is based on a lot more than the location of the primer strike. Plus ... it doesn't work, as the couple of states requiring submission of those fired cases have found out.jmr40 said:
Toolmark evidence- the unique microscopic indentations left on a fired casing by the firing pin, extractor, ejector and breechface can in fact match fired casings to a specific firearm. There are lots of other factors to solving a homicide; but if the perp is caught with a murder weapon that matches casings recovered at a crime scene, you are real close to having it done.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Do any states still require the cases be submitted? I thought that was no longer in effect anywhere.
Yes, they can, PROVIDED, you have both the case and the gun (and a proper chain of evidence) AND, the gun has not altered the marks it makes due to wear or other factors.
What it boils down to is "points of congruence" and what the jury believes from the experts who testify.
Most of the time, if a crime gun is recovered, a match to casings at the scene is likely, but it is not a 100% certainty. Nor is a match to the fired case provided by the maker a certainty.
The certainty is on tv shows, not in reality.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Not true. We're discussing the fired case repository system. The fired case that comes (came) with a new gun was obviously fired when the gun was new. If a crime is committed with that gun five or ten years later, after thousands of rounds have been fired, there's little assurance that the chamber or firing pin will leave similar marks, and there's a high probability that the marks won't be the same. And that doesn't even account for the possibility that the barrel and/or firing pin might have been swapped.Sarge said:
Yeah, the FBI lab was considered "as good as gold," too. How many cases are there around the country that have been discredited over the past two or so years because the FBI lab guys perjured themselves on the witness stand?
It's not just the lab, it's an arrogance that permeates the organization. When dealing with their tech center in Springfield, discussing technical means for acquiring audio from a telephone, their comment was "You don't need a warrant if you're not going to court". So much for the Constutition.
In another first hand account, I witnessed "Special Agent ***" from one of their western office show an utter disregard for law and citizen safety with a ludicrous and illegal request.
Shall we discuss their program management and coverup of their recent case management fiasco? And there's more....
Clearly Inspector Erskin has turned over in his grave. Don't believe their BS.
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It's propaganda pure and simple.
The ignorant masses see that and assume it's easy peasy to do it & when the subject comes up in real life they can't see why anyone would oppose it.(it being the requirement to submit a fired case)
Notice also that when they match the case, they often refer to finding the owner by checking the "registration".
Again, more propaganda.
The ignorant audience hears that and is lead to believe there is some kind of gun registration.
It's subtle but extremely effective.
kilimanjaro
New member
Television also is known for 16-shot revolvers, police officers out on the street an hour after a shooting, and detectives who ignore all the rules about evidence and procedures. Lots of fables on the tube.
2damnold4this
New member
ATN noted:
(Re the FBI's ongoing violations of Constitutional protections)
Under that doctrine a speeder should be able to redrive the offended street at the speed limit with no ticket, and a caught bank rover should be allowed to go back and give the money back.
I'm all for law and order, including federal agencies following what they swore to uphold.
(Re the FBI's ongoing violations of Constitutional protections)
Under that doctrine a speeder should be able to redrive the offended street at the speed limit with no ticket, and a caught bank rover should be allowed to go back and give the money back.
I'm all for law and order, including federal agencies following what they swore to uphold.
2ndsojourn
New member
"From the National Academies of Science: link "
I'll never have time to read all 322 pages of the report, but when I read this...
"Conclusion:A national reference ballistic image database of all new and imported guns is not advisable at this time."
...I more or less quit reading.
The report did go on to offer suggestions for improvements to the program to make it useful but it looked to onerous to implement. Also, the panel acknowledged microstamping as an alternative, but also conceded that it could be ineffective if the gun(s) were tampered with.
I'll never have time to read all 322 pages of the report, but when I read this...
"Conclusion:A national reference ballistic image database of all new and imported guns is not advisable at this time."
...I more or less quit reading.
The report did go on to offer suggestions for improvements to the program to make it useful but it looked to onerous to implement. Also, the panel acknowledged microstamping as an alternative, but also conceded that it could be ineffective if the gun(s) were tampered with.
kilimanjaro
New member
Go figure. They tried the cartridge database in one eastern state, a total failure. Canada tried a long gun registration scheme. Another total failure. Socialism has been tried in dozens of countries in the last century, a total failure every time.
But guess what these folks keep on trying to do? Yep, gun control and socialism. It's failed because they weren't in charge.
At least that's how they think.
But guess what these folks keep on trying to do? Yep, gun control and socialism. It's failed because they weren't in charge.
At least that's how they think.