SOB carry is dangerous?
- Thread starter zxc
- Start date
I don't have any firsthand accounts. If you go to Milt Sparks web site, select questions on the left, then item 10, you'll see that Tony Kanaley says:
Whether or not you think SOB holsters are dangerous, I suggest that you skip them simply because compared to a strong-side hip holster they are: 1) slower to draw from, 2) easier to cross yourself while drawing (and holstering), 3) harder to defend, 4) less comfortable while sitting, 5) print like crazy when you bend over. Lots of disadvantages and I've never seen a single advantage.
On the Mass. Firearms Mailing list a couple years back, one of the folks on the list was a chiropractor. She said that two of her patients had fallen on SOB holsters and were in chronic pain.
Whether or not you think SOB holsters are dangerous, I suggest that you skip them simply because compared to a strong-side hip holster they are: 1) slower to draw from, 2) easier to cross yourself while drawing (and holstering), 3) harder to defend, 4) less comfortable while sitting, 5) print like crazy when you bend over. Lots of disadvantages and I've never seen a single advantage.
Preacherman
New member
C.R. Sam wrote:
Would that apply to Thunderwear as well???
I would discourage wearing one but not because of a potential back injury. Many years ago a partner of mine in a U/C narcotics unit wore one and found himself in a potential lethal force confrontation during a controlled and surveilled buy. In his haste to present he got on the trigger too quickly and discharged one into his right hip and butt cheek taking him out of the fight. It was a very painful wound which later became quite infected.
Though posters who follow this one may well put in those laughing faces or add similar remarks, let me assure you that this was not a humorous situation for him, the informant accompanying him or the officers, including me, who were covering him. I would also add that it wasn't humorous for the dealer either after we apprehended him.
The other thing I've found is that non-professionals who use that system rarely if ever practice from it as few, if any, ranges allow them and no training organizations I know of permit use of that carriage method in their classes.
Though posters who follow this one may well put in those laughing faces or add similar remarks, let me assure you that this was not a humorous situation for him, the informant accompanying him or the officers, including me, who were covering him. I would also add that it wasn't humorous for the dealer either after we apprehended him.
The other thing I've found is that non-professionals who use that system rarely if ever practice from it as few, if any, ranges allow them and no training organizations I know of permit use of that carriage method in their classes.
David Blinder
New member
citizen, why would an SOB be the only option for carrying available?
If you can carry SOB, you can carry strong side on the belt, either IWB or OWB. Earlier posts mentioned the potential disadvantages of SOB and frankly, I can't think of a single advantage. I think some people favor them because they are like an ostrich. They look in the mirror and can't see any printing so they believe they are "hidden."
If you can carry SOB, you can carry strong side on the belt, either IWB or OWB. Earlier posts mentioned the potential disadvantages of SOB and frankly, I can't think of a single advantage. I think some people favor them because they are like an ostrich. They look in the mirror and can't see any printing so they believe they are "hidden."
lonegunman
New member
The spinal cord ends above where most SOB sit, so a spinal cord injury isnt much of a risk.
Cowdogpete
New member
Just to be ornery...
Advantages of S.O.B. Holsters:
1. Comfortable to wear when standing walking.
2. Very discreet, again while erect.
3. Draw stroke look just like you are reaching for your wallet.
I have one and have worn it on occasion. But don't even think about sitting down and leaning back. If you can get comfortable when you try to sit the metallic thud makes people look at you funny.
I don't recommend them except in very specific applications. And as noted above. Practice with it! (shouldn't even half to say it, should we?)
Advantages of S.O.B. Holsters:
1. Comfortable to wear when standing walking.
2. Very discreet, again while erect.
3. Draw stroke look just like you are reaching for your wallet.
I have one and have worn it on occasion. But don't even think about sitting down and leaning back. If you can get comfortable when you try to sit the metallic thud makes people look at you funny.
I don't recommend them except in very specific applications. And as noted above. Practice with it! (shouldn't even half to say it, should we?)
I carry IWB, and over time, my USP has migrated from the 6 o'clock position around to about 4 o'clock. It's more comfortable and more discreet, and my draw speed is better. For a while I carried directly over the pocket my wallet was in, but whenever I sat down, a little piece of cheek skin got caught in the gap. Not pleasant at all.
Blunder; sorry for the late reply. Work; you know.
Anyway, absolute yet available concealment in a confined seating position is the only means possible in my profession. I HAVE been searched while so confined, with a resulting failure to find.
Perhaps a more thorough criminal would have been more successful; yet I'm grateful the later opportunity to again search me while erect failed to occur. Yet this was a VERY professionally executed crime......won't happen again; one way or another.
Anyway, absolute yet available concealment in a confined seating position is the only means possible in my profession. I HAVE been searched while so confined, with a resulting failure to find.
Perhaps a more thorough criminal would have been more successful; yet I'm grateful the later opportunity to again search me while erect failed to occur. Yet this was a VERY professionally executed crime......won't happen again; one way or another.
Excellent replies.
I havent considered the draw efficiency aspect as 75% of the time wont be using this CCW. point well taken on practice, of course driving is OOQ.
Lonegunman-Point where the SpCord ends is rather suspect as it spreads out into horsehair at this juncture, still a vital nerve bundle-but encased in the strong bony pelvic structure. padding/ spreading the force of impact is possible with holster construction.
CRSAM Again,most of the falls Ive seen are sideways-resulting in hip bruises and fractures of hip ankle wrist. Landing squarely on SOB is rare; unless incapacitated there is a lateral direction as the legs give way/either that or your a prof wrestler. rather more frequent on the lateral aspect; ie the favored kidney position. Hence more potential for injuries.
As far as the holstermaker POV, CYA to me.
As for the chiropractors opinion- you never have a good enough back for them; sorry but its quack IMHO.
Anatomically,the SOB will be where the lumbar segment curves forward hence the term SOB.
So far no concrete evidence presented,imho
Good research material.
I havent considered the draw efficiency aspect as 75% of the time wont be using this CCW. point well taken on practice, of course driving is OOQ.
Lonegunman-Point where the SpCord ends is rather suspect as it spreads out into horsehair at this juncture, still a vital nerve bundle-but encased in the strong bony pelvic structure. padding/ spreading the force of impact is possible with holster construction.
CRSAM Again,most of the falls Ive seen are sideways-resulting in hip bruises and fractures of hip ankle wrist. Landing squarely on SOB is rare; unless incapacitated there is a lateral direction as the legs give way/either that or your a prof wrestler. rather more frequent on the lateral aspect; ie the favored kidney position. Hence more potential for injuries.
As far as the holstermaker POV, CYA to me.
As for the chiropractors opinion- you never have a good enough back for them; sorry but its quack IMHO.
Anatomically,the SOB will be where the lumbar segment curves forward hence the term SOB.
So far no concrete evidence presented,imho
Good research material.
First of all, the spinal cord goes down to the pelvis and then some. Crack the vertebrae under SOB hard enough and you WILL be a paraplegic.
As to chiropractors, some are quacks, some are not. In my case, I was given a choice of painkillers and muscle relaxants "until it goes away" by a "doctor," or being adjusted back into position over the space of a month by a chiropractor. I took the second option. I don't see how a "doctor" who can operate on someone's wrists, say "oh, well sometimes you do lose sensation when we do that, and you may lose range of motion. That's Just The Way It Is," is any more respectable than a chiropractor.
But go ahead. Ask any doctor you wish what might happen if you land on a chunk of metal placed against your spine if you fall.
SOB holsters are amusing. (with specific examples such as Citizen's exempted, of course.) Only option more stupid is those idiots "PAAAAAAAYger Pal! HOTTest sellin' holster in the country, Ladies and Gentlemen!"
Yeah, try drawing a pager up and a gun out while seated in a car. Go ahead. And any draw that requires two hands is a loser to start with.
And ZXC, several people presented concrete evidence, first hand. What's your objection?
As to chiropractors, some are quacks, some are not. In my case, I was given a choice of painkillers and muscle relaxants "until it goes away" by a "doctor," or being adjusted back into position over the space of a month by a chiropractor. I took the second option. I don't see how a "doctor" who can operate on someone's wrists, say "oh, well sometimes you do lose sensation when we do that, and you may lose range of motion. That's Just The Way It Is," is any more respectable than a chiropractor.
But go ahead. Ask any doctor you wish what might happen if you land on a chunk of metal placed against your spine if you fall.
SOB holsters are amusing. (with specific examples such as Citizen's exempted, of course.) Only option more stupid is those idiots "PAAAAAAAYger Pal! HOTTest sellin' holster in the country, Ladies and Gentlemen!"
Yeah, try drawing a pager up and a gun out while seated in a car. Go ahead. And any draw that requires two hands is a loser to start with.
And ZXC, several people presented concrete evidence, first hand. What's your objection?
MM: Greetings I hope youre not mad at me for bringing up this topic,if so my apologies to you and other TFLers. My intent is to clarify the subject=SOB carry as dangerous factually in a fall or is this a legend. spcord ends at conus medullaris L2-L3, the cauda equina exits as spinal nerves all the way to the coccyx. damage is major bobo with loss both motor/sensory and autonomic. As far as asking a Doctor what happens if I land on my spine with a gun on the SOB; the first answer/questions Ill get back is whose your insurance carrier-thank you very much that would be stupid.
Should I fall while CCW which will give less chance of serious injury? SOB ?or FBI/4 Oclock etc
Back or kidney injury...
Back pain or dialysis...
good for you on the chiro...wish you well. Id like to warn you but I cant.
Again, my apologies SIR!
Should I fall while CCW which will give less chance of serious injury? SOB ?or FBI/4 Oclock etc
Back or kidney injury...
Back pain or dialysis...
good for you on the chiro...wish you well. Id like to warn you but I cant.
Again, my apologies SIR!
zxc: sorry, I missed the first part of your post. Didn't mean to be rude. I don't know of anyone injured from falling on an SOB holster. It seems pretty obvious, however, that it will damage the spine. That's worse than damaging soft tissue or the hip. It's an awkward position for a draw. There are times it would be appropriate, but most people will never be in them.
I'll take your word on the medical parlance of the spinal cord. There are major nerves down there, however, and I do personally know someone who was crippled, nearly paraplegic, from a strike to the coccyx. I won't risk mine.
As to "chiropractors are quacks," as I said, it depends. Mine used to be head of orthopedic surgery at a major hospital. I assume he knows his way around the spine. ;-)
Thing is, I know of many people crippled from surgery. I don't know of any crippled by a chiropractor. And what mine charges, even if I went weekly (I go every 6 months to two years when I forget to exercise enough and my 12 degree scoliosis seizes my traps up) he'd be cheaper over my lifetime than surgery. And I don't have to sign a waiver that if I wind up crippled it's not his fault and he keeps the $50K for trying. (Would you let a mechanic get away with that? "We're going to rebuild your engine, but if the car won't start, it's not our fault!") And I'd have to say that if your doctor won't answer that question, HE's the quack. ;-) Mine recommends against it. "It will certainly exacerbate any injuries you do sustain," he says.
There are things I see doctors for, like my still undiagnosed stomach problem that's either esophagitis or an ulcer. There are things I see a chiropractor for, like tendonitis in the wrists from writing 10,000 words a day or playing guitar, or my neck seizing up.
There's also things I use a .380 for and things I use a .45 for. And even things I'd reluctantly use a SOB holster for, if I needed to. Right application and the right tool.
I'd guess that given the tiny number of people carrying that way, the number of them involved in an altercation and the number actually falling backwards, it's a small number.
So is the number of people who have lethal accidents while drinking and skydiving. But I don't drink when I jump.
So is the number of people who lose fingers to wedding rings, though my father arced out a 100kV box and got UV burns up his arm from the flash, and my father-in-law got his burned to the flesh when it soaked up IR from a laser. None of us wear rings anymore.
Do keep us posted on your findings, though. I am curious as to the results.
I think you're much less likely to land so as to injure the kidney, more likely to fall on the hip, but it can take a bit of beating (albeit painfully). And if the incident gets that far, it's going to suck no matter what happens.
Your mileage may vary.
And don't call me "Sir." My parents were married.
I'll take your word on the medical parlance of the spinal cord. There are major nerves down there, however, and I do personally know someone who was crippled, nearly paraplegic, from a strike to the coccyx. I won't risk mine.
As to "chiropractors are quacks," as I said, it depends. Mine used to be head of orthopedic surgery at a major hospital. I assume he knows his way around the spine. ;-)
Thing is, I know of many people crippled from surgery. I don't know of any crippled by a chiropractor. And what mine charges, even if I went weekly (I go every 6 months to two years when I forget to exercise enough and my 12 degree scoliosis seizes my traps up) he'd be cheaper over my lifetime than surgery. And I don't have to sign a waiver that if I wind up crippled it's not his fault and he keeps the $50K for trying. (Would you let a mechanic get away with that? "We're going to rebuild your engine, but if the car won't start, it's not our fault!") And I'd have to say that if your doctor won't answer that question, HE's the quack. ;-) Mine recommends against it. "It will certainly exacerbate any injuries you do sustain," he says.
There are things I see doctors for, like my still undiagnosed stomach problem that's either esophagitis or an ulcer. There are things I see a chiropractor for, like tendonitis in the wrists from writing 10,000 words a day or playing guitar, or my neck seizing up.
There's also things I use a .380 for and things I use a .45 for. And even things I'd reluctantly use a SOB holster for, if I needed to. Right application and the right tool.
I'd guess that given the tiny number of people carrying that way, the number of them involved in an altercation and the number actually falling backwards, it's a small number.
So is the number of people who have lethal accidents while drinking and skydiving. But I don't drink when I jump.
So is the number of people who lose fingers to wedding rings, though my father arced out a 100kV box and got UV burns up his arm from the flash, and my father-in-law got his burned to the flesh when it soaked up IR from a laser. None of us wear rings anymore.
Do keep us posted on your findings, though. I am curious as to the results.
I think you're much less likely to land so as to injure the kidney, more likely to fall on the hip, but it can take a bit of beating (albeit painfully). And if the incident gets that far, it's going to suck no matter what happens.
Your mileage may vary.
And don't call me "Sir." My parents were married.
zxc: First, you can screw up your back without getting paralyzed. That I do have first hand experience with
Second, you've got two kidneys, so even if you lose one, you're not going to be on dialysis (thank goodness for that, since dialysis is basically a slow death sentence).
Third, if you fall on your hip holster, while you might bruise your kidney, I'd be very, very surprised if you would destroy the kidney. Such a fall would not put you on dialysis.
If you want to wear an SOB holster, great, go ahead. But compared to a hip holster, I've never seen the SOB holster to have any advantages. Instead, it has many disadvantages. And that's before you even get to the question of safety.
Put it this way, even if you dismiss any concerns about safety, what does an SOB holster do that a hip holster doesn't do better?
M1911
Second, you've got two kidneys, so even if you lose one, you're not going to be on dialysis (thank goodness for that, since dialysis is basically a slow death sentence).
Third, if you fall on your hip holster, while you might bruise your kidney, I'd be very, very surprised if you would destroy the kidney. Such a fall would not put you on dialysis.
If you want to wear an SOB holster, great, go ahead. But compared to a hip holster, I've never seen the SOB holster to have any advantages. Instead, it has many disadvantages. And that's before you even get to the question of safety.
Put it this way, even if you dismiss any concerns about safety, what does an SOB holster do that a hip holster doesn't do better?
M1911
MarineTech
New member
This is the reason I own and use a Galco SOB in addition to my Milt Sparks VM2. If MF mad an SOB, I'd buy theirs.
I've spent 6 hours of driving with the Galco and I actually felt it was more comfortable to wear when sitting then my VM2. It was more centered and cushioned by the car seat and didn't dig into the seat belt arm the way an IWB holster at 4:00-5:00 does.
I think this is going to be a personal choice issue. The potential danger of falling on the gun aside, for comfort some people are just going to prefer an SOB holster.