So is HK the front runner in the new Army contract ??
- Thread starter vyper005
- Start date
Glocks never were in the running. The new .45 has to have two configurations, one with and one without an external saftey. That knocks the XD out of contention. However, they could submit the SA Highcap. Remember, it has to be a non-developmental item that is already commercialy available. I don't know how that works as far as the silencer provision because not a whole lot of commercialy available guns have provisions for a silencer.
HK does not have to build a plant here in the US.
HK does not have to build a plant here in the US.
HorseSoldier
New member
I heard a rumor recently that I've not been able to confirm so far that the Big Army dropped out of the new pistol contract entirely (leaving it purely in the hands of USASOC) and will be retaining the M9 and 9mm for the time being.
no one is going back to .45...
from http://www.berettausa.com/media/media_press_releases.htm;
BERETTA 9mm PISTOLS PASS SEVEN CONSECUTIVE MILITARY TESTS WITH RECORD PERFORMANCE
Deliveries ahead of schedule on contracts for over 34,000 pistols to U.S. Military
Accokeek, Md. - Beretta USA has passed a seventh consecutive military test for delivery of the Beretta 9mm Model 92FS pistols to the U.S. Army (military designated M9).
In late 2005, the U.S. Army, on its own behalf and on behalf of other branches of the Armed Forces, such as the U.S. Air Force, placed contracts with Beretta U.S.A. to buy new Beretta 9mm 92FS pistols and parts. These contracts also allow the U.S. Military the option to buy up to a total of 70,000 92FS/M9 pistols through 2010. Formal testing of the newly ordered pistols began in early 2006.
"The results of the new tests are outstanding," noted E. Scott Blackwell, Beretta U.S.A.'s Division Manager - Manufacturing & Vice President, Law Enforcement/Defense Group. "When Beretta pistols were ordered by the Armed Forces throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s, they averaged one malfunction in every 17,500 rounds fired, which was believed at the time to be a world record for reliability in a semiautomatic pistol. These new pistols, which are mostly comprised of standard, off-the-shelf parts, are breaking that record. During government witnessed testing of these new pistols, we have averaged only one malfunction every 21,000 rounds fired."
Beretta USA has been continuously manufacturing the 92FS/M9 pistols since 1988 at its U.S. headquarters in Accokeek, Maryland. “All 325 employees here in our Maryland facility where the pistols are manufactured, assembled and tested, are proud to continue to provide this sidearm to our American military personnel” stated Blackwell.
The US made 92FS/M9 pistol has been purchased and deployed worldwide by thousands of law enforcement and military agencies and services worldwide, including most recently the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department and, in its advanced M9A1 configuration with integral light rail and, enhanced tactical features, the US Marine Corps
from http://www.berettausa.com/media/media_press_releases.htm;
BERETTA 9mm PISTOLS PASS SEVEN CONSECUTIVE MILITARY TESTS WITH RECORD PERFORMANCE
Deliveries ahead of schedule on contracts for over 34,000 pistols to U.S. Military
Accokeek, Md. - Beretta USA has passed a seventh consecutive military test for delivery of the Beretta 9mm Model 92FS pistols to the U.S. Army (military designated M9).
In late 2005, the U.S. Army, on its own behalf and on behalf of other branches of the Armed Forces, such as the U.S. Air Force, placed contracts with Beretta U.S.A. to buy new Beretta 9mm 92FS pistols and parts. These contracts also allow the U.S. Military the option to buy up to a total of 70,000 92FS/M9 pistols through 2010. Formal testing of the newly ordered pistols began in early 2006.
"The results of the new tests are outstanding," noted E. Scott Blackwell, Beretta U.S.A.'s Division Manager - Manufacturing & Vice President, Law Enforcement/Defense Group. "When Beretta pistols were ordered by the Armed Forces throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s, they averaged one malfunction in every 17,500 rounds fired, which was believed at the time to be a world record for reliability in a semiautomatic pistol. These new pistols, which are mostly comprised of standard, off-the-shelf parts, are breaking that record. During government witnessed testing of these new pistols, we have averaged only one malfunction every 21,000 rounds fired."
Beretta USA has been continuously manufacturing the 92FS/M9 pistols since 1988 at its U.S. headquarters in Accokeek, Maryland. “All 325 employees here in our Maryland facility where the pistols are manufactured, assembled and tested, are proud to continue to provide this sidearm to our American military personnel” stated Blackwell.
The US made 92FS/M9 pistol has been purchased and deployed worldwide by thousands of law enforcement and military agencies and services worldwide, including most recently the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department and, in its advanced M9A1 configuration with integral light rail and, enhanced tactical features, the US Marine Corps
Believe me, I hope that we see the new .45 sooner rather than later. I have seen first hand in the last year a lot of broken locking blocks on the firing line as well as several cracked slides (about 3 of them completely in half) that went to DRMO to really feel comfortable with the M9 design.
As far as the 9mm goes, again, I have seen first hand too many failures to stop with the FMJ round we are required to carry to trust a 9mm FMJ to stop anything more than a paper target.
I have a lot of students come though the range and if you ask "the gun guys" that actually are shooting an easy majority of them want to get away from the M9 and 9mm as well. I agree, the sooner we get away from that weapon and mainly the caliber, the better!
As far as the 9mm goes, again, I have seen first hand too many failures to stop with the FMJ round we are required to carry to trust a 9mm FMJ to stop anything more than a paper target.
I have a lot of students come though the range and if you ask "the gun guys" that actually are shooting an easy majority of them want to get away from the M9 and 9mm as well. I agree, the sooner we get away from that weapon and mainly the caliber, the better!
+1 USMCGrunt
I read that article and had a hard time believing the 1 in 17,000 round malfunction ratio. Granted, I've only qualified with the pistol twice and havn't used it other than when I'm on duty, but I'm not very confident in it's reliability. I would really like to see the DOD go back to the 1911 or at least something chambered in 45.
I read that article and had a hard time believing the 1 in 17,000 round malfunction ratio. Granted, I've only qualified with the pistol twice and havn't used it other than when I'm on duty, but I'm not very confident in it's reliability. I would really like to see the DOD go back to the 1911 or at least something chambered in 45.
IM afraid you are wrong, Luger.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/jcp.htm
There are a ton more. Just google "Joint Combat Pistol." Dozens of links all with the same specs. It makes it hard ot belive it is just an internet rumors.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/jcp.htm
There are a ton more. Just google "Joint Combat Pistol." Dozens of links all with the same specs. It makes it hard ot belive it is just an internet rumors.
Well, if that criteria is it, it looks like the USP45 would really be the only contender. However, if SIG makes a double-stacked 220 or SA makes an XD with an optional modular safety, they'd be possibilities as well. I'd be really interested to see what the gun companies come up with. I particularly like that it can't have a magazine disconnect. While I have no problem with the 9mm as a defensive round, I would think that 9mm ball in a self-defense or combat situation would be less than effective.
HorseSoldier
New member
No specific reason as far as I know, though I suspect that if it is accurate it has something to do with the cost of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan putting a lot of procurement issues on a back burner.
Some guys within USASOC are carrying new, non-Mk23 45 cal HK pistols these days, though I haven't seen them firsthand and don't know if they are USP45CTs or HK45s. I'm not sure if this supports the big army drop out rumor, or represents a COTS buy by USASOC to compensate for the delays imposed on procurement by big army involvement . . .
HorseSoldier
New member
Actually, he's correct. Or, more exactly, you're both correct, +/- the possibility that the JCP may have devolved back to a USASOC program without the big army piggybacking.
The US Army has the Joint Combat Pistol program, but have also been buying additional Berettas, partly because of operational wear and tear, and partly because the basis of issue for handguns has expanded dramatically due to lessons learned in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The animal has to have safties and be high cap already. That is the whole purpose of a NDI.
Sig does not have the capacity. Ruger has the same problem as Sig. Same with S&W. Mags with 10 rounds would already stick out, imagine hi-cap mags.
Do they even make a PX4 in .45? If not, it is out because that would require development.
The CZ-97 is big for a whole lot of people. And 10 rounds being the minimum, they would have to go to extended mags for high capacity.
The Witness line would be an interesting idea, but I doubt they would make it through trials.
'Nuff said about glock.
The SA 1911-A2 high cap would be cool, as said before, but how is reliability on them? Come to think about it, that would be great as there is a huge base of 1911 gunsmith knowledge in the military right now.
Sig does not have the capacity. Ruger has the same problem as Sig. Same with S&W. Mags with 10 rounds would already stick out, imagine hi-cap mags.
Do they even make a PX4 in .45? If not, it is out because that would require development.
The CZ-97 is big for a whole lot of people. And 10 rounds being the minimum, they would have to go to extended mags for high capacity.
The Witness line would be an interesting idea, but I doubt they would make it through trials.
'Nuff said about glock.
The SA 1911-A2 high cap would be cool, as said before, but how is reliability on them? Come to think about it, that would be great as there is a huge base of 1911 gunsmith knowledge in the military right now.
rellascout
Moderator
I have heard the Sig has pistol built specifically for the JCP that was shown to a few people at the Shot show.
Some thought that the newly introduced P220 Combat TB was the gun but from what I have heard it is not. Might just be rumor. Remember that the JCP is just an open end purchasing agreement. If HK were to win based on specs no one would buy due to the cost.
To be honest my money is on FN. They have a new .45 on the way that will meet the spec and come in signifantly lower than HK.
Some thought that the newly introduced P220 Combat TB was the gun but from what I have heard it is not. Might just be rumor. Remember that the JCP is just an open end purchasing agreement. If HK were to win based on specs no one would buy due to the cost.
To be honest my money is on FN. They have a new .45 on the way that will meet the spec and come in signifantly lower than HK.
I think even if Beretta does have an entry fielded for the trials, it's going to have an uphill battle on it's hands. Right or wrong, there are complaints about it's reliability (really a fault of aftermarket mags rather than the pistol itself), problems with broken locking lugs and frame seperation failures that are going to be associated with the Beretta name. Even if the PX4 (or whatever name their .45 version would go by) is a good weapon, there is going to be the stigma of having the association with the Beretta M9.
FirstFreedom
Moderator
if there were to be a change...
it should be done right:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm.html#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm
it should be done right:
http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm.html#
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_mm
EMB135Driver
New member
It's kind of funny to read all the stories about the M9 failing to perform, yet the government continues to buy it...why??????....maybe when you realize that there are hundreds of thousands of M9s in service, being used every day in combat zones around the world, you should expect a few failures.....i think if you deployed any handgun in the numbers of the M9, you would see some failures.