Smith &Wession 1911, is it a true 1911?
- Thread starter j1132s
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WillBrayjr
Moderator
No, it's not a true 1911. There are interchangable parts. I don't think any of the parts in the slide are interchangable, I haven't seen an exploded view of the SW1911 yet. A true 1911 does not have an external extractor
XavierBreath
New member
There are some who would say a true 1911 does not have a beavertail, ambi-safeties, a dovetailed front sight or a a stainless finish. I disagree with that. The SW1911 is a good pistol, and a true 1911. It does have an external extractor. Everything else is standard 1911 and will swap out with 1911 parts on the market. In fact, S&W uses quite a few of those parts, such as the McCormick trigger, instead of manufacturing their own.
WillBrayjr
Moderator
Nope, have to disagree with you. The SW1911 isn't a true 1911. A true modern 1911 will be fully interchangable with the original 1911. A true 1911 doesn't have the external extractor :barf:, FLGR :barf:, checkered frontstrap :barf:, forward cocking serrations :barf: lowered and flared ejection port. Shall I go on?
XavierBreath
New member
So.......if a pistol has Bomar sights, it's not a true 1911? If a pistol has a fitted beavertail it's not a true 1911?
Oh, wait...... if a pistol has scallops behind the trigger.........it's not a true 1911! If it has a short trigger, it's not a true 1911! Those were M1911A1s, right?
What about the pistols made in the years after 1911? Were they 1912s, 1913s, and such? After all, they were not made in 1911!
The fact is, with the S&W 1911, all parts are interchangeable with other modern 1911s and swap out with the standard 1911 parts on the market such as Ed Brown, McCormick, Wilson Combat, etc.., except for the external extractor. That is what the original poster was inquiring about, not what other people's opinions of what constitutes a 1911 are.
Here is a 1911 not made by Colt.
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WillBrayjr
Moderator
Sorry, still not buying into it A true 1911 and A1 are the exactly same on the inside. True 1911s are fully interchangable including the extractor. Hate to break it to you Handy but a GSR and alot of Kimbers aren't true 1911s. Real 1911s are built exactly to Browning's blue prints and Springfields are
See, Now you just stuck your foot in your mouth by showing that 1911. Plus you're only showing the leftside, lets see the external extractor on the rightside of that 1911.
A true 1911 and A1 are the exactly same on the inside. True 1911s are fully interchangable including the extractor. Hate to break it to you Handy but a GSR and alot of Kimbers aren't true 1911s. Real 1911s are built exactly to Browning's blue prints and Springfields are See, Now you just stuck your foot in your mouth by showing that 1911. Plus you're only showing the leftside, lets see the external extractor on the rightside of that 1911.
XavierBreath
New member
No presently manufactured pistol is built exactly to Browning's blueprints. Not Springfield, and not even the Colt 1911 reproduction.
Actually Will, they are not the same. You can swap parts around and mix and match, but they are not the same on the outside or on the inside.
I used to own a SW1911. I like modern "improvements" like beavertails, Novak/Heinie sights, 20 and 30lpi checkering, and extended safeties (I prefer high thumb hold to shoot). If it helps me shoot better. Screw "tradition" I say. I don't even mind external extractors as long as they work consistently like SW1911s seem to do (unlike Kimbers).
But one thing I don't like about SW1911's is the Swartz firing pin safety. If they HAD to put one in I wish they used the proven Series 80 mechanism that has been used successfully by Colt. I esp. don't like the fact those expensive Performance Series guns have the Swartz system. No way I'd pay $1500 and up for a gun with one. They may work okay for most people most of the time but 1911's are simply more reliable without sticking a useless mechanism inside.
If I'm gonna pay $1500+ for a 1911 give me one without firing pin safeties and preferably an internal extractor. Just the things that help me shoot better.
But no these are not "true" 1911A1's in purest terms. I think they're even better.
I don't even mind external extractors as long as they work consistently like SW1911s seem to do (unlike Kimbers).But one thing I don't like about SW1911's is the Swartz firing pin safety. If they HAD to put one in I wish they used the proven Series 80 mechanism that has been used successfully by Colt. I esp. don't like the fact those expensive Performance Series guns have the Swartz system. No way I'd pay $1500 and up for a gun with one. They may work okay for most people most of the time but 1911's are simply more reliable without sticking a useless mechanism inside.
If I'm gonna pay $1500+ for a 1911 give me one without firing pin safeties and preferably an internal extractor. Just the things that help me shoot better.
But no these are not "true" 1911A1's in purest terms. I think they're even better.
WillBrayjr
Moderator
Willing to put your money where your mouth is? Oh my bad, you can't because you got your foot stuck in your mouth
XavierBreath
New member
WillBrayjr,
You are stating your opinion of what is a so called true 1911. You are not answering the original poster's question. I did answer his question. You simply want to argue. I will waste no time making you look foolish, you do a good job of that without assistance.
Good day,
XB
You are stating your opinion of what is a so called true 1911. You are not answering the original poster's question. I did answer his question. You simply want to argue. I will waste no time making you look foolish, you do a good job of that without assistance.
Good day,
XB
WillBrayjr
Moderator
I answered his question before you did. Ask any 1911 expert and they'll tell you the same thing I did I'm talking about people like Ken Hackathorn not people like Handy.
Speaking of fools, I'm not the one with my foot in my mouth.
I'm talking about people like Ken Hackathorn not people like Handy.Speaking of fools, I'm not the one with my foot in my mouth.
steelheart
Moderator
I would avoid any 1911 that has the Schwartz/Schwarz (sp?) safety mechanism. Colt designed it in the 1930's and abandoned it due to reliability issues. A high end custom 1911 'smith I know will not work on any 1911 with a Schwarz safety - he says from what he has seen, they are just not reliable.
I would also avoid any 1911 with an external extractor - the internal extractor design has been in the 1911 for almost 100 years for a reason - reliability. The external design is a cost cutting/profit maximizing measure and is more prone to failure.
For a low to mid priced 1911, Colt or Springfield are the best choices, IMO. Both S&W and Kimber use the Schwarz safety and external extractors in their 1911s. The one exception is the Kimber Desert Warrior, which uses neither.
I would also avoid any 1911 with an external extractor - the internal extractor design has been in the 1911 for almost 100 years for a reason - reliability. The external design is a cost cutting/profit maximizing measure and is more prone to failure.
For a low to mid priced 1911, Colt or Springfield are the best choices, IMO. Both S&W and Kimber use the Schwarz safety and external extractors in their 1911s. The one exception is the Kimber Desert Warrior, which uses neither.
Kimber ended up switching back to the internal extractors in the last 1/2 year or so. Seems like their attempt at the external extractor had a bunch of reliability issues.
The S&W external extractor is said to be an extremely reliable one. I'm only shot about 300 rounds with mine, so it's early, but so far no problems at all.
To me, if it works, that's fine with me, I'm not going to go crazy and say that it's not a 'true' 1911 because of it though. From what I understand, just about any standard 1911 part you find in a catalog should fit the S&W just fine.
The S&W external extractor is said to be an extremely reliable one. I'm only shot about 300 rounds with mine, so it's early, but so far no problems at all.
To me, if it works, that's fine with me, I'm not going to go crazy and say that it's not a 'true' 1911 because of it though. From what I understand, just about any standard 1911 part you find in a catalog should fit the S&W just fine.
XavierBreath
New member
No, you gave an incorrect answer based on your own prejudices.
You seem to believe that a pistol is not a 1911 unless it was built from original blueprints.
I think Ken Hackathorn would agree that a 1911 with Novak sights is still a 1911 eventhough Sam Browning did not have Novak sights on his blueprints.
I think most people who build and work on guns would agree as well.
Your argument is laughable.
A Springfield is built to several metric dimensions and has an odd shaped dust cover.
Flared ejection ports are found on most current guns.
1911s are .45s, but the same gun has been offered in other calibers for nearly the entire production history.
Ken Hackathorn uses "1911s" with beavertails. I think he would look at you like you were on drugs when you told him that gun isn't a 1911.
Overall, there is nothing important in your argument. "1911" is shorthand for a what would be considered a family of guns, and the S&W product meets all the recognized attributes. If you want to redefine words, Will, have a good time. That way you can re-explain to everyone how they're all wrong and you're right so they know to tune you out.
So thanks for being a combative pain, and confusing the poster who had a fairly simple question. Consider us all properly chastened; you can go play somewhere else now.
I understand there's a High Power clone thread going. Why not go insult those people about what's a High Power, and what the definition of "clone" is? I'm sure they can't wait for your input.
Flared ejection ports are found on most current guns.
1911s are .45s, but the same gun has been offered in other calibers for nearly the entire production history.
Ken Hackathorn uses "1911s" with beavertails. I think he would look at you like you were on drugs when you told him that gun isn't a 1911.
Overall, there is nothing important in your argument. "1911" is shorthand for a what would be considered a family of guns, and the S&W product meets all the recognized attributes. If you want to redefine words, Will, have a good time. That way you can re-explain to everyone how they're all wrong and you're right so they know to tune you out.
So thanks for being a combative pain, and confusing the poster who had a fairly simple question. Consider us all properly chastened; you can go play somewhere else now.
I understand there's a High Power clone thread going. Why not go insult those people about what's a High Power, and what the definition of "clone" is? I'm sure they can't wait for your input.
WillBrayjr
Moderator
I'm not saying the Smith isn't a 1911, I'm saying it's not a true 1911. By the way tard who the ---- is Sam Browning, still got your foot in your mouth heh.
Nope Butch, I'm not on drugs. The extended beaver tail is cosmetic and doesn't have to do with function. The external extractor isn't cosmetic.
Nope Butch, I'm not on drugs. The extended beaver tail is cosmetic and doesn't have to do with function. The external extractor isn't cosmetic.
Do you think you actually helped answer j1132s's question?
Nope. Obviously he wasn't asking for a dissertation on the history of 1911 production. Anyone who wanted the kind of answer you provided would already know that the SW1911 isn't even shaped like a stock issue 1911. He meant "true 1911" in reference to similar guns like the Mallina, Star and 945, which have 3 or less minor parts in common. Unlike a SW1911, which a gunsmith can replace nearly any part with a properly fitted custom item.
Nope. Obviously he wasn't asking for a dissertation on the history of 1911 production. Anyone who wanted the kind of answer you provided would already know that the SW1911 isn't even shaped like a stock issue 1911. He meant "true 1911" in reference to similar guns like the Mallina, Star and 945, which have 3 or less minor parts in common. Unlike a SW1911, which a gunsmith can replace nearly any part with a properly fitted custom item.
WillBrayjr
Moderator
He asked if the Smith was a "true" 1911 and I said no because it's not. My answer was the first sentence of my first post. It doesn't get any simpler than a few words.
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