Sizing die clearance

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Aguila Blanca

Staff
Does anyone know what the relationship is between the inside diameter of a sizing die and the desired outside diameter of the case?

I'm ruminating on possibly trying to make a resizing die for .22 LR. It should be easy, since the case is cylindrical -- no taper. All I have to do is drill a hole, but ... how big should the hole be?

Initially I was thinking that if the SAAMI range for the .22 LR case is .222 - .226 (SAAMI spec is .226 - .004) and I wanted to aim for a resized case diameter of .225", I should allow .001" clearance and bore the die to .226". Then I remembered that brass probably springs back a bit after resizing, so the hole in the die might need to be the same dimension as the desired end result .. or maybe even slightly smaller?

Does anyone know?
 
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std7mag

New member
Trying to mic the inside of a die is a PITA without specialty tools.
Often way more expensive than the cost of a die.
Or a rifle for that matter.

From my observations when i was having issues with my 284 Win necks being undersized, it seems to bee about 0.002" spring back.
But that is a 0.016" thick neck.

22LR brass may be thinner, so amount of spring back may differ.

Don't forget, they are roll crimped.
You may want to check with Cutting Edge Bullets (www.cuttingedgebullets.com)
I know they have a setup for reloading their new high BC ,22 bullets.
 
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tangolima

New member
Those dies are expensive. If I am to reload 22lr, I will make me own dies too, but I will need to have access to a lathe for that.

I will start with a 15/64" (0.234") drill bit. Test it with a few brass. Measure the diameter of the resized brass to determine the final hole diameter, and ream the hole to target diameter with reamer.

When done, I will case harden the die and polish its interior. Will do the same for seating die.

I will use a 7/8-14 bolt as blank for the machining the die.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
A

Aguila Blanca

Staff
tangolima said:
Those dies are expensive. If I am to reload 22lr, I will make me own dies too, but I will need to have access to a lathe for that.

I will start with a 15/64" (0.234") drill bit. Test it with a few brass. Measure the diameter of the resized brass to determine the final hole diameter, and ream the hole to target diameter with reamer.

When done, I will case harden the die and polish its interior. Will do the same for seating die.

I will use a 7/8-14 bolt as blank for the machining the die.
Click to expand...
That's pretty much the way I view it. The die from Sharp Shooter 22Reloader is a quality die, but it's pricey.

I've bought several 7/8-14 threaded rods (about 9" long), so the only machining I would need to do to create a sizing die is to bore the hole. And that's the question -- how big does the hole need to be? 15/64 is much too large. The SAAMI maximum OD for a .22LR case is 0.226". I would start by looking at a #2 drill (.2210") or a 5.7mm (.2244").
 
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stagpanther

New member
The "conventional wisdom" governing tolerances, headspacing, case-stretch etc does not apply to 22lr reloading in my experience; the fit must be much more precise. Nor do you roll crimp the bullets with a solid like CE's. It is critical with their bullets that the case mouth butt up precisely against the base of the drive band. The CE crimp die is more like a floating seater stem that is designed to uniform the case OD. 22reloader's hand tool will do a "real" roll crimp because it clamshell closes on the case which is going to be less OD than the drive bands'. That's my take, anyway.;)
 
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tangolima

New member
Aguila Blanca said:
That's pretty much the way I view it. The die from Sharp Shooter 22Reloader is a quality die, but it's pricey.

I've bought several 7/8-14 threaded rods (about 9" long), so the only machining I would need to do to create a sizing die is to bore the hole. And that's the question -- how big does the hole need to be? 15/64 is much too large. The SAAMI maximum OD for a .22LR case is 0.226". I would start by looking at a #2 drill (.2210") or a 5.7mm (.2244").
Click to expand...

I misread the numbers. My bad. #2 sounds a good starting drill size. But I will also get a few reamers for sneaking up to the target. Also leave room 0.0005" for final honing / polishing.

I would haven't started similar project if not for the priming method and cast bullets. I don't want to deal with the priming compound (is it still corrosive?), and I can't cast.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
A

Aguila Blanca

Staff
tangolima said:
I would haven't started similar project if not for the priming method and cast bullets. I don't want to deal with the priming compound (is it still corrosive?), and I can't cast.
Click to expand...

The priming compound sold by Sharp Shooter 22Reloader is corrosive. The components to mix up a non-corrosive priming compound are apparently restricted, and not generally available to mere mortals.

Bullets:https://northamericanarms.com/parts/parts-cb/

Those are 30-grain bullets, so they're really what are used in .22 Long rather than .22 Long Rifle, but they shoot. They make the same size hole in the paper, and they'll work on pests and small game.

You can also get the solid-copper bullets (with primed cases) from Cutting Edge, but they're expensive -- like almost 50 cents per round.
 
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LeverGunFan

New member
Lee makes a bullet sizing die with a .225 inch diameter, retails for less than $25. I don't have a die to inspect, so I don't know if it could be used or modified to size 22 LR cases. Might be worth a look before fabricating a die from scratch.

What would you use for a shell holder? Or would you just use a plain ram to push the 22 LR case into the die?
 
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stagpanther

New member
I'm firmly convinced that what makes truly outstanding 22 lr ammo isn't necessarily the sexiness of the bullet or velocity--but tight consistency within the diminutive measurements involved.
 
U

Unclenick

Staff
22 LR cases are not annealed and are fairly hard and springy. I've not measured it, but would not be surprised if they had several thousandths of spring-back. The #2 drill, if you start with it directly, will likely wallow out two or three extra thousandths, so you may want to start with a 7/32" drill (0.2188"), then clean the hole with a #3, followed by a 0.222" reamer. Then load a swab with JB bore compound or Iosso Bore Cleaner and polish it out. See what you get by way of a final diameter. If you find it too narrow, go to a reamer with enough difference in diameter to correct the result. The main thing is to keep in mind you can always take more metal off. Putting it back on is a lot of bother, involving boring and sleeving and reboring.

Once you have the right hole diameter and have radiused the mouth of the hole to avoid shaving brass, if you started with 7/8-14 all-thread, you can case-harden it with Kasenit to make it last.

One thing to watch out for with all-thread is the uniformity of the threads. They are formed with a die, and not turned or ground. As a result, they can be uneven. I had some once that, as I turned it, the thread would advance very little on on side and then too fast on the other. Such a thread will not sit straight upright in a loading press.
 
A

Aguila Blanca

Staff
LeverGunFan said:
Lee makes a bullet sizing die with a .225 inch diameter, retails for less than $25.
Click to expand...
They also make one that's .224", which is probably closer to what's needed. But I suspect that the bullet sizing dies have a tapered throat, which would make them useless for full-length sizing cases.
 
H

HiBC

New member
I do not pretend to know about reloading 22 rimfire.

If you have access to a lathe ,its a tossup whether you can bore or ream a better hole.

Most of the resizing I've done reloading involves the die sizing the brass undersize then using an expander plug.

One path to buying a hardened,ground steel hole is a drill bushing. These are typically installed in old school drilling fixtures where something like a semi-finished forging would be loaded in the fixture then the machinist on the multi-spindle gang drill would run the series of drills,reamers,etc through the bushings. Precise positioning was controlled by the hardenened, ground bushings.
They wear, so they are sold as a consumable.

You might have to grind back a lead in.
Don't forget 22 LR is typically a heeled bullet You may find seating an interesting experience. Given the case od and the driving band OD are nominally the same, something similar to an L E Wilson straight line seater may work. It would be a simple hole through an unthreaded bar, slip fit diameter to the case and bullet. Relieve a clearance for the rim .
The diameter would be the slip fit for both the case OD and bullet.

Just isolate yourself from hand injury should it fire in the die while seating.

Also from McMaster Carr (or MSC,etc) you should be able to get individual gauge pins in about any size. They are hardened and ground and would be a basis for an expander. You can spin them in a lathe and stone on any chamfer or relief you need.

https://www.mcmaster.com/browse-clamping-and-holding/
 
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tangolima

New member
Straight wall cartridges don't have expander ball for resizing. It is probably so for 22lr.

Seating heeled bullet could be more challenging, but it shouldn't be too difficult either. The bullet's heel doesn't have to sit on the brass mouth exactly. I would leave a small gap, say 0.003", there to cater for tolerance. Crimping the brass to take out the the flare on brass mouth seems more difficult. May need to do it with a collet

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
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stagpanther

New member
I'm probably doing a poor job of explaining--so I'll try again.;)

The dimensional requirements for shooting a solid bullet like CE's are going to be completely different from those required for typical lead/lubed or coated bullets. While they advertise they can be done in the same gear, you will not get adequate results if you do IMO.

The main difference between the two is that the lead or coated lead bullet typically will be softer and engage in deeper and slower twist rifling (typically 14 to 16 twist)--the much harder solid bullet does not have as much give and also much less bearing surface, so it requires both shallower and faster twist rifiling for the heavier bullets. Given the charges are only a few grains of propellent +/-; the precision in tolerances are very tight--a bit of variation may make the difference between a good impact and a bullet lodged in your bore. Variations in ignition of primer can do the same thing.

About the cases. I gave up on the notion of actually reusing and repriming 22lr brass as a fool's errand. The main reason being is that it is very difficult to maintain concentricity of the case--especially to the rimmed base. the slightest "bulge-out" near the base--and the slightest bend and out of alignment of the rim itself and you're going to have a hard time getting the reload to chamber in precision chambers--let alone have consistent results one shot to the next. AFAIK there are only a few factories in the world that produce primed 22lr brass, CCI being one and what I would consider as a bare minimum to start with; and what I think CE actually sells.

IMO CE dropped the ball by not offering barrels to go with the rest of the gear. The notion that somehow you're going to get extraordinary 600 yd performance out of an everyday 22lr rifle I think is a very long stretch of imagination. They did a great job with the rest of the gear and bullets, but IMO it all is for naught unless matched to a barrel specifically reamed for their bullets.
 
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R

reddog81

New member
stagpanther said:
About the cases. I gave up on the notion of actually reusing and repriming 22lr brass as a fool's errand. The main reason being is that it is very difficult to maintain concentricity of the case--especially to the rimmed base. the slightest "bulge-out" near the base--and the slightest bend and out of alignment of the rim itself and you're going to have a hard time getting the reload to chamber in precision chambers--let alone have consistent results one shot to the next.
Click to expand...

I had similar questions/concerns... When you resize the case it seems like the thin rim would also have a good chance flattening out or getting out of alignment.

If I was making a die I would start at .222 and use a neck expander to get the mouth size I want. It'll be easier to make the hole larger if needed.
 
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stagpanther

New member
I bought thousands of primed cases from an outfit called Fed Arms--not to be confused with the actual Federal Arms--and they are virtually useless as being too wide and/or having uneven rims. Heritage revolver fodder.
 
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L

lll Otto lll

New member
Aguila Blanca said:
Does anyone know what the relationship is between the inside diameter of a sizing die and the desired outside diameter of the case?

I'm ruminating on possibly trying to make a resizing die for .22 LR. It should be easy, since the case is cylindrical -- no taper. All I have to do is drill a hole, but ... how big should the hole be?
Click to expand...

Resizing the case isn't necessary to reload 22LR. You'd just be wasting your time and efforts. But that's your choice.
 
J

Jim Watson

New member
I can't give you a Magic Number, I think gradually honing out a hole is the best approach for a homemade die. Here are some posts by a guy who worked on it a good deal. Note that he was loading fresh cases, not reloading to have to size or deal with the aggravation of repriming the rim. And he (they) were loading black powder which might be more fun than you care to try.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16806
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20048&p=218970#p218970
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...er-Reloads-How-to-Make-Them&highlight=rimfire
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...658&highlight=.22+LR+black+powder#post2619658
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?130946-22-lr-bpcr-!!
 
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