Single Action with a Decocker

[Rothdel]

Was reading about the development of the P64 specifically that the Polish Police wanted a gun that had an extremely hard double action pull to make it harder for a policeman to discharge the first shot with the firearm. Evidently this was done to require careful preparation and thought before pulling the trigger.

I read two separate accounts from Polish police, who carried this firearm, that their normal procedure was to load and chamber a round then decock the firearm and carry with the safety on with the hammer down. Upon drawing the weapon safety was switched to fire and the hammer manually cocked. Now I could not find any official corroboration out side of two random and old posts by supposed Polish policemen. The truth or lack there of is not my question but I'm getting there.

Regardless of veracity this got me thinking about other hammer designs and the amount of opinions regarding how to carry a gun with a hammer. (Also not my question)

Many Double/Single action guns have a decocking mechanism but I do not know of any single action guns with the same feature. Given the popularity of the 1911 platform and the debate over how best to carry a 1911 surely someone has thought about the idea of adding a decocker to a single action only gun.

With that being said has anyone ever applied a decocker to a single action only gun?

 

[Fishbed77]

Many Double/Single action guns have a decocking mechanism but I do not know of any single action guns with the same feature.

The Canik TP9SA is a single-action pistol with a decocker.

But in truthfulness, this is not a great idea. When the pistol is decocked, the trigger is dead, meaning that you have to rack the slide to bring the pistol into action.


.

 

[Lohman446]

I'm not sure the debate on how to carry a 1911 is actually a hotly debated item. The choices to me seem to be on an empty chamber or with the hammer back (safety engaged) so that the hammer safety mechanisms work as the manufacturers intend.

 

[RickB]

That's an interesting question.
The decocker on a DA gun lowers the hammer to a ready condition, while a decocker on a SA would lower the hammer to an un-ready condition.
If you want to carry the gun in an un-ready condition, you can just leave the chamber empty and not mess with the hammer at all.

 

[surveyor]

Look at cylinder and slide SFS for 1911(CS0116)
https://cylinder-slide.com/Item/CS0116
and hi power(CS0115). https://cylinder-slide.com/Item/CS0115From cocked hammer back to put on safe, push the hammer forward, then the safety comes on, when you take the safety off the hammer springs back to the cocked position.

I had an Olympic arms 1911 with it on it.
It may have also been called a fast action safety in the past as well.

That said, I didn't change out my other 1911's to it.
There wasn't any need.

 

[Brownstone322]

But in truthfulness, this is a very bad idea. When the pistol is decocked, the trigger is dead, meaning that you have to rack the slide to bring the pistol into action.

No no, read what he wrote. As he described it, you'd have to pull back the hammer manually. On a 1911, this would bring the trigger back to life without racking the slide (and without ejecting a chambered round).

The issue, as I read it, was the need for a safe mechanism for lowering the hammer on a live round to begin with.

That's an interesting question.
The decocker on a DA gun lowers the hammer to a ready condition, while a decocker on a SA would lower the hammer to an un-ready condition.
If you want to carry the gun in an un-ready condition, you can just leave the chamber empty and not mess with the hammer at all.

As I read it, the idea was that (arguably) manually cocking the hammer would be simpler (and quieter, maybe) than racking the slide.

 

[Fishbed77]

No no, read what he wrote. As he described it, you'd have to pull back the hammer manually. On a 1911, this would bring the trigger back to life without racking the slide (and without ejecting a chambered round).

I did read what he wrote.

Then I answered his questions:

Many Double/Single action guns have a decocking mechanism but I do not know of any single action guns with the same feature.

With that being said has anyone ever applied a decocker to a single action only gun?

The Canik TP9SA is not hammer-fired, but functions essentially like what he is asking for. Decocking makes the pistol non-functional. Pulling the slide rearward recocks the striker, rather than a hammer. You do not need to pull the slide far enough to the rear to eject a round to recock the striker.

Honestly, the idea of a single-action pistol with a decocker is not a very good one, and that's why it has failed to gain much market traction.

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[Fishbed77]

Also, the CZ52 (vz.52) is a single-action pistol with a decocker. When decocked, the hammer has to be recocked and a manual safety taken off to fire.

 

[glockman55]

View attachment 106796 Yes the Canik TP9SA has a De-cocker on the top of the slide, same place the Canik TP9SFx da/sa..I'm thinking they just kept in on the newer TP9sa to save cost on re-design of a new slide/ Doesn't seem to be an issue with me, just don't use it. and it takes 10 lbs of pressure to push it down. some very doubtful it would be accidently pushed. It's cheaply priced gun that seems to be well built.. too big for a CC weapon IMO..Range or HD..View attachment 106796

 

[Sevens]

Maybe a slight thread drift but I guess I never cared for decockers on pistols. I don't dwell on this since I collect S&W 1-2-3rd Gens and that means I have a slew of pistols with decockers and I certainly don't love them any less.

I'm not denying "progress" but it seems to me that handgunners lived through more than a century of SA and DA revolvers and safely decocked them without a gizmo to do it for them.

I file them in the same place as "loaded chamber indicators" which is to say that generally speaking, I believe that they work against safe gun handling on a fundamental level.

Or maybe I'm just becoming crotchety as I age.

 

[m&p45acp10+1]

I have pocket carried my P64. The DA trigger pull is heavy. Though it is not gritty or rough. The safety does decock the hammer. On drawing it I just pulled the trigger. Single action trigger pull is about 2 pounds if that. I would not want to expend the time to cock the hammer if I can just pull the trigger.

 

[GarandTd]

I'm with you, Sevens. I don't have much need for a decocker. About the only time I wish I had it is when I want to practice DA trigger pulls in my DA/SA auto.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not a single action, but before the transition to 9mm, German police typically carried their Walther PP .32s decocked over an empty chamber. Some say with safety engaged. So they would have to draw and rack the slide like a Condition 2 1911, and never see a DA trigger pull.

 

[2damnold4this]

Fishbed beat me to it:

Also, the CZ52 (vz.52) is a single-action pistol with a decocker. When decocked, the hammer has to be recocked and a manual safety taken off to fire.

 

[agtman]

The old 2nd Gen S&W 745 was a S/A version of the 645, but it had a slide-mounted (and oversized) decock lever.

 

[Sevens]

Sorry agtman, but that was hammer block only, it wasn't a decocker.

Love my 745's!

 

[Model12Win]

Was reading about the development of the P64 specifically that the Polish Police wanted a gun that had an extremely hard double action pull to make it harder for a policeman to discharge the first shot with the firearm. Evidently this was done to require careful preparation and thought before pulling the trigger.

I read two separate accounts from Polish police, who carried this firearm, that their normal procedure was to load and chamber a round then decock the firearm and carry with the safety on with the hammer down. Upon drawing the weapon safety was switched to fire and the hammer manually cocked. Now I could not find any official corroboration out side of two random and old posts by supposed Polish policemen. The truth or lack there of is not my question but I'm getting there.

Regardless of veracity this got me thinking about other hammer designs and the amount of opinions regarding how to carry a gun with a hammer. (Also not my question)

Many Double/Single action guns have a decocking mechanism but I do not know of any single action guns with the same feature. Given the popularity of the 1911 platform and the debate over how best to carry a 1911 surely someone has thought about the idea of adding a decocker to a single action only gun.

With that being said has anyone ever applied a decocker to a single action only gun?

They would take the safety on and also pull back the hammer on the P64? Talk about awkward.

The P64 is not a safe firearm to carry with a round in the chamber and safety off. It WILL discharge if dropped on the hammer in said condition, so maybe that's why they have the safeties on?

 

[In The Ten Ring]

My thinking is thus:

1). Poland being a then-communist country, police would never face an armed threat so a hard-to shoot first round is fine (?).

2). Polish police must not have wanted to hit anything "extremely hard double action trigger pull...."

 

[wild cat mccane]

P99QA is what the TP9SA copied, so let's give it credit where credit is due.

HK P7 design in striker? Have to arm by squeezing the grip, disarms when grip is released...

 

[Fishbed77]

P99QA is what the TP9SA copied, so let's give it credit where credit is due.

HK P7 design in striker? Have to arm by squeezing the grip, disarms when grip is released

Yes - the P99QA had a small button on the slide to fully release striker tension prior to field stripping (to avoid having to pull the trigger as on a Glock).

However Walther never really advertised the P99QA trigger as single-action. It was more of a Glock-style action that was partially cocked and and then fully cocked when the trigger was pulled.

If I understand correctly, the TP9SA trigger is ever-so-slightly different, and is fully single-action. I may be wrong, and welcome any further information.