10 ft, and since you could react, lunge and hit the guy at 10 ft with a 4 ft long walking stick in a mere 3/4 second since punks can SEE the stick and just avoid you, and since using the stick eliminates the 1/4-1/2 second of hesitation about using lethal force and worry about innocents downrange, and since one whack of stick is more likely to suffice than most ammo used today, your concealed draw and hit at 10 ft needs to be sub 3/4 sec, or you would be better off with the stick. Since brandishing your gun (ie, folding back your coattail) costs you your permit, the only way to have such speed is to use the hand in pocket ready position. cold, wet windy weather precludes having an unfasstened coat, so the pocket pc wins there, too. If sew on pockets from old surplus khaki pants, and wear somewhat loose pants, the pocket draw can be at LEAST as fast as a belly band is, even starting with hands at surrender. If you take the trouble to unsnarl your pocket when you sit down,the pocket pc can still be reached. Driving, I put it under my thigh, anyway (on LEFT side if I pick up a hiker
Since nearly all attacks are sub
- Thread starter Hardin
- Start date
How heavy of a stick do you carry that is more effective with one smack delivered in .75 seconds than most ammo used today? Not to mention a 4 foot stick would not be very effective up close unless you were using staff centered gripping techniques. And somehow I don't see that carrying a "walking" stick by the middle is very low profile 
What do you do with the 4 foot stick when your working or driving?
How does the stick help one against multiple opponents that each out weight you by 50 or 100 lbs?
Cross draw, car mounted, or ankle work a lot better than pocket when you in the car.
IMHO having one gun in front pocket and another in cross draw [either belt or shoulder] is the most practical way to have a CCW that is truly concealed and accesible.
What do you do with the 4 foot stick when your working or driving?
How does the stick help one against multiple opponents that each out weight you by 50 or 100 lbs?
Cross draw, car mounted, or ankle work a lot better than pocket when you in the car.
IMHO having one gun in front pocket and another in cross draw [either belt or shoulder] is the most practical way to have a CCW that is truly concealed and accesible.
MellowMikey
New member
Here's the deal, you get one free wack with your stick, then I get one free shot with my 10mm.
I know which one will be more effective and BTW I go for walks with a rattan cane and a Glock 20. So I can wack em and Glock em in less than 2 seconds.
Oh, I am in an open carry state, so I can show off my Glock anytime I desire, so much for your lack of deterrent theory.
Mikey
I know which one will be more effective and BTW I go for walks with a rattan cane and a Glock 20. So I can wack em and Glock em in less than 2 seconds.
Oh, I am in an open carry state, so I can show off my Glock anytime I desire, so much for your lack of deterrent theory.
Mikey
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Hardin - My question is this... Have you ever been in a real fight? I ask this because even a solid shot from something as hefty as a baseball bat still may not end a fight.
If your attacker is motivated to do you harm - then simple strike of that kind will only piss him off.
Even a rather direct blow to the head doesnt always work!
Living in an Urban area - as most of us do - packing a 4 foot shaft of wood just isnt something you do.
Just like a shot from a pistol may not end the fight...
Anyways - if your in a confrontation that requires you to draw back your covering garment exposing your weapon - then you are (or should be if your not too jumpy) justified in drawing the weapon, aiming it at the threat, and giving short and simple and firm verbal commands. Like:
Stop
Dont Move
Kiss the street
or what ever is tactically required. If you were justified in doing this - you not going to automatically lose your CCW.
If your in a bar and get into a pissing match and "uncover" as a message to Dont Mess With Me... then Yeah - you can lose your CCW if you do that.
If your attacker is motivated to do you harm - then simple strike of that kind will only piss him off.
Even a rather direct blow to the head doesnt always work!
Living in an Urban area - as most of us do - packing a 4 foot shaft of wood just isnt something you do.
Just like a shot from a pistol may not end the fight...
Anyways - if your in a confrontation that requires you to draw back your covering garment exposing your weapon - then you are (or should be if your not too jumpy) justified in drawing the weapon, aiming it at the threat, and giving short and simple and firm verbal commands. Like:
Stop
Dont Move
Kiss the street
or what ever is tactically required. If you were justified in doing this - you not going to automatically lose your CCW.
If your in a bar and get into a pissing match and "uncover" as a message to Dont Mess With Me... then Yeah - you can lose your CCW if you do that.
riddleofsteel
New member
are you the same "Hardin" that used to post on Shooters? if so a search of "Hardins posts on Shooters can tell all you TFL'ers what this dude is about.
carried gun under thigh for years, no problems
when have to get out of car, simply pocket it, ankle draw is always slow and awkward. Cross draw doesnt conceal at all well, so called drivig holsters are a joke. Stick is hollow metal, divisible in half, 3 sided, and you wont do anything with your gun arm after I hit it with one of those 3 corners, Few live in open carry states, and fewer will risk the hassles that go with it. Lots of people dont know it's legal, and will still call the cops on you., Others will avoid you like a leper. Who needs it? Cane crook on the stick, who knows if your knee hurts you when you walk?
when have to get out of car, simply pocket it, ankle draw is always slow and awkward. Cross draw doesnt conceal at all well, so called drivig holsters are a joke. Stick is hollow metal, divisible in half, 3 sided, and you wont do anything with your gun arm after I hit it with one of those 3 corners, Few live in open carry states, and fewer will risk the hassles that go with it. Lots of people dont know it's legal, and will still call the cops on you., Others will avoid you like a leper. Who needs it? Cane crook on the stick, who knows if your knee hurts you when you walk?
Agree.
'Stick' very effective anti-personnel tool. Ankle holster for last-ditch hideout gun only, cross-draw CAN be concealed (if you wear it far enough behind hip point and learn draw with either hand), but okay for driving (where I don't worry about complete concealment, frankly), and regardless of Hardin's posts elsewhere, does not invalidate his(hers?) comments here.
'Stick' very effective anti-personnel tool. Ankle holster for last-ditch hideout gun only, cross-draw CAN be concealed (if you wear it far enough behind hip point and learn draw with either hand), but okay for driving (where I don't worry about complete concealment, frankly), and regardless of Hardin's posts elsewhere, does not invalidate his(hers?) comments here.
riddleofsteel
New member
I stand corrected...
i guess we will know a tree by the fruit it bears.
as far as a stick for self defense. i have trained with both Jo and Bo staffs and i can tell you that in the hands of a trained person they can be both defensive and deadly.
my problem with this is that a young healthy person attracts a lot of attention with a stick. in most jurisdictions packing a stick/staff/baton without good reason is illegal. i think it is strange that in N.C. i can get a permit to carry a handgun concealed. that means a source of deadly force, no compromise. but i can not be permitted to carry a deadly knife, dirk, impact weapon or stun gun.
go figure
i guess we will know a tree by the fruit it bears.
as far as a stick for self defense. i have trained with both Jo and Bo staffs and i can tell you that in the hands of a trained person they can be both defensive and deadly.
my problem with this is that a young healthy person attracts a lot of attention with a stick. in most jurisdictions packing a stick/staff/baton without good reason is illegal. i think it is strange that in N.C. i can get a permit to carry a handgun concealed. that means a source of deadly force, no compromise. but i can not be permitted to carry a deadly knife, dirk, impact weapon or stun gun.
go figure
Badger Arms
New member
Smith 642 in coat pocket with coat unzipped. ZERO brandishing. ZERO hesitation. Just shoot through the pocket. If somebody is brandishing a stick, I'm shooting. That's, by definition, Jeopardy, Ability, and Means and I'm fighting back.
banker investor types carry guns, know lawmakers
dont usually carry dirks, etc or didnt when gunlaws were written. simple when you understand class-economic-cultural viewpts. Healthy strong young man shouldnt need stick. learnkarate instead. illionois is pretty repressive, nothing is said about walking sticks here. cane crook helps disquise it a bit, look like NEED it when cops are around, that's all. or divide it in half and sling it. Noone care to argue about the 1/4-1/2 sec saved by not needing to worry about lethal force, innocents downrange? Besides, punk might think you wont shoot, but stick is silent, no ballistics trail, hurts like hell. Scratching back of neck with it (when smell a rat) puts it in ideal position for real power swing, and if he somehow gets in under it, "head" of stick can be used like yawara stick
dont usually carry dirks, etc or didnt when gunlaws were written. simple when you understand class-economic-cultural viewpts. Healthy strong young man shouldnt need stick. learnkarate instead. illionois is pretty repressive, nothing is said about walking sticks here. cane crook helps disquise it a bit, look like NEED it when cops are around, that's all. or divide it in half and sling it. Noone care to argue about the 1/4-1/2 sec saved by not needing to worry about lethal force, innocents downrange?
Besides, punk might think you wont shoot, but stick is silent, no ballistics trail, hurts like hell. Scratching back of neck with it (when smell a rat) puts it in ideal position for real power swing, and if he somehow gets in under it, "head" of stick can be used like yawara stickWhile most lethal force incidents start out at less than 10 feet, not all of them do. And carrying a cane also just screams "injured prey" to some critters, and may draw them in.
Hitting someone with a stick IS lethal force.
Anyone ever tell you that the difference between most and all can be a real heartbreaker?
I've got a bit of stick training and I've got a bit of experience using a stick; it's my experience that getting in a kill shot or a crippling blow on a determined assailant before he closes to grappling distance is one in ten. At best.
Which, coincidentally, is about the same amount of time needed to chamber and deliver a stick blow with enough force to stop your opponent.
LawDog
sub attacks
Hardin,
Long time no hear.
Sticks are fine...just remember..no one else will be carrying one..stick leaves distinctive marks and if a witness sees you with one...you're the only suspect.
Also, if they escape or retreat out of your range and they get their sidearm...you are open to their counterattack unless you are really fast at "bridging" the gap. Or if you are fast at dropping the stick and going to concealed weapon.
Be careful about the gun under the thigh technique, the FBI shooting in Florida showed that with sudden impact, you have a good chance of losing your weapon.
Main thing to remember..."Know yours(and your weapons) limitations."
Hardin,
Long time no hear.
Sticks are fine...just remember..no one else will be carrying one..stick leaves distinctive marks and if a witness sees you with one...you're the only suspect.
Also, if they escape or retreat out of your range and they get their sidearm...you are open to their counterattack unless you are really fast at "bridging" the gap. Or if you are fast at dropping the stick and going to concealed weapon.
Be careful about the gun under the thigh technique, the FBI shooting in Florida showed that with sudden impact, you have a good chance of losing your weapon.
Main thing to remember..."Know yours(and your weapons) limitations."