Sig 239 DAK "safety"

[Sixer]

Ok, well not really a safety feature... but I've had my 239 DAK for a while now. I'm a fan of the DAK trigger now that I'm used to it. Anyway, if you are familiar with the DAK Sigs you know that if you dry fire the gun each trigger pull is HEAVY. The hammer goes completely forward after each pull. When the gun is loaded and fired the hammer stays cocked.

Is there any possible way to have a round in the chamber when the hammer is all the way forward? Just curious... If not, it is a good indicator for whether or or not you have one in the pipe.

 

[zoomie]

Is there any possible way to have a round in the chamber when the hammer is all the way forward?

No - it's always a little aft when it's cocked. At least mine is, and I don't think it's broken.

 

[Nnobby45]

If not, it is a good indicator for whether or or not you have one in the pipe.

NO IT'S NOT!

I'ts all the way forward resting on the FP in an unnatural position. You can't put it there with a round in the chamber without pulling the trigger and thumbing it down part way, and (because there's not enough hammer to hold on to) letting it slip the rest of the way. Not recommended!!!

When the slide operates, as in firing, it sets the hammer where it's supposed to be. Back safely away from (as in not resting on) the firing pin. If it didn't, it would be a machine pistol.

The "heavy pull" you describe is partially from resetting the hammer to it's normal position by pulling the trigger, because the slide isn't operating to do the job.


Simply put, the only time the hammer rests on the FP is during dry fire because the slide doesn't operate to reset the hammer.


With the hammer in it's proper rebounded SAFE position, the trigger pull is long and smooth. After the slide operates with the trigger pulled, the trigger will go forward and reset sooner, than when it was all the way forward.



Operate the slide without the trigger pulled, the trigger resets in the all the way forward position and by passes the first (short) reset.

To see how the gun works as designed, pull trigger (in safe manner, of course) and leave it pulled, then operate slide. Now, let the trigger out slowly until you hear and feel it reset. Then let it out some more and listen and feel for it to reset a second time. Once you become familiar with the two reset positions, learn to rapid fire the gun using the first reset. That's how they designed it. If you let the trigger out too far, it will just reset again, and you can fire it from there.

The short (first reset) produces a shorter and harder pull, but you won't notice it during rapid fire.


When you dry fire the gun and, with hammer all the way forward, pull the trigger until it clicks as the hammer sets, then stop in that position. Now, the trigger is in the shorter first reset position. If you let it come forward, it's in the normal second reset position with the longer, smooth, and lighter second reset.

The two position trigger bar is unique to the DAK system.

Occasionally there are those who have DAKs but have no interest in learning to use the first reset for proper trigger control. "Oh, I just let it come all the way forward" they say.

Don't be one of those. Learn to use it as designed and you can put rounds on target as fast as DA/SA. If not, you have a glorified DAO, albeit with a nicer trigger pull.

 

[Sixer]

I'ts all the way forward resting on the FP in an unnatural position. You can't put it there with a round in the chamber without pulling the trigger and thumbing it down part way, and (because there's not enough hammer to hold on to) letting it slip the rest of the way. Not recommended!!!

Nnobby, excellent info. That's my point though... not that you should rely on it, but if the hammer is all the way forward you should be able to tell that there is no round in the chamber.

 

[Nnobby45]

That's my point though... not that you should rely on it, but if the hammer is all the way forward you should be able to tell that there is no round in the chamber.

Hammer all the way down isn't an indicator of anything I'd trust my life to. As mentioned a number of times now, it will never be down under normal carry circumstances.

Knew a fellow who tested his 1911 after having extractor problems and it failed to eject. In disgust, he just threw the gun in his bag and went home. If someone using your gun (or you) had, say, a FTfire, and did something like that, however unlikely, there'd be a round in the chamber that would likely fire if the trigger was pulled again---even with the hammer all the way forward "indicating" the gun was empty.

Check any pistol every time you pick it up and quit worrying about the hammer's position.

 

[Sixer]

Are we still really having this discussion?

Hey I just asked a simple question... I'm familiar with how the DAK trigger works but I'm sure others will appreciate your helpful input.

If you wish to mumble to yourself that there can't possibly be a loaded round in the chamber....

Nevermind, that's not my point. You're starting to sound like one of my old college professors Good intentions, but basically just liked to hear himself talk.

 

[chris in va]

If it didn't, it would be a machine pistol.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't do that.

 

[Nnobby45]

Nevermind, that's not my point. You're starting to sound like one of my old college professors Good intentions, but basically just liked to hear himself talk.

You're starting to sound like the problematic student, found in every class , who (in this case) is obsessed with using the hammer's position to determine the condition of a pistol rather than check it properly. Let's don't forget who hands out the grades here.

You'll notice I did go back and lighten my post up a little and remove some of the stuff you commented on. But apparently not before you read it.

Don't have a problem with questions. Just the notion that there's a way to determine the condition of a pistol other than doing a proper chamber check. Not saying you wouldn't check it, but, like you said, there may be others reading these posts.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't do that.
Today 11:29 AM

Any hammer that goes forward and hits the firing pin as the slide goes forward will fire the gun. I just used that analogy to illustrate the point that the hammer can only get there, and stay, by pulling the trigger without the slide operating.

 

[Dubs]

The four rules of safety were developed exactly to prevent that kind of thinking. The only good indicator of whether or not you have one in the pipe is your eyeballs. I never chamber a round in my nightstand gun, so that would be a good indicator of whether or not one is in the pipe... but every time I take it out, I check anyway.

 

[MLeake]

Concur with Nnobby45

on all counts. (I also have a P239 DAK, as well as other flavors of SIG with other triggers)

Sixer, your hammer all the way down could mean you've pulled the trigger on an empty chamber.

However, on my P220, the hammer sat unusually far forward at one point. That was due to a failure of the rebounder spring. The weapon was live. It also had one less protection against firing if it had been dropped.

Hammer down is not a guarantee of anything.

My read on Nnobby45 repeating himself is that he is trying to prevent anybody from doing something potentially lethal (in an unintended way) with their pistol. That deserves reinforcement.

 

[Nnobby45]

However, on my P220, the hammer sat unusually far forward at one point. That was due to a failure of the rebounder spring. The weapon was live. It also had one less protection against firing if it had been dropped

The older P220's, like mine (and yours?), have no rebound spring to reset the hammer back to it's proper position. This is accomplished by using the decocker, which stops the hammer in the intercept notch so it doesn't contact the firing pin.

When the hammer is all the way down, which only happens when the slide does't operate, a slight pull of the trigger will re-set it.

If the hammer stays forward on later models that have the hammer reset spring (like yours?), then you may have a broken spring.


Can test the decocker for proper function by using the pencil test. With chamber empty, place pencil eraser down into bbl., gun pointed up, of course, then use the decocker. The pencil shouldn't move.

Sounds like an earlier model P220 AM. (American. The EU has the European style heal butt mag release)


MLeake, you're correct that my intent was to prevent unsafe practices that could lead to an unfortunate accident. Appreciate the support.

 

[Muddflap]

Whoops didn't read far enough.

 

[MLeake]

Rebounder spring

If my older P220 did not have a rebounder spring, then I paid a gunsmith to replace a phantom part. However, after he installed the new spring, the hammer decocked to the proper position, and not to full down. Whatever he did, it worked.

BTW, possibility of parts failure is a very good reason to always use the decocker with the muzzle facing someplace safe.

I'm going to have to check with some SIG armorers, now...

 

[Sixer]

Let's don't forget who hands out the grades here.

Got me there

I am in NO WAY advocating or suggesting the use of the hammer position to determine if you have a loaded gun. I simply wondered if it was possible under normal conditions (no broken parts, malfunctions, etc.) to have a round chambered if the hammer is all the way forward. I got my answer.

Check any pistol every time you pick it up and quit worrying about the hammer's position.

Will do Professor Nnobby

 

[Nnobby45]

If my older P220 did not have a rebounder spring, then I paid a gunsmith to replace a phantom part. However, after he installed the new spring, the hammer decocked to the proper position, and not to full down. Whatever he did, it worked.

The older stamped and folded slide versions, with breachblock, came without the hammer reset spring. Then, if memory serves, they were upgraded to hammer reset.

Sounds like you had a "newer" old version with a broken one (haven't heard of one breaking).

Or: your smithie upgraded to newer hammer stop with reset spring. Don't know if that required a new hammer, but would have been a little expensive.

If you have the latest stainless one-piece slide version, it was obviously not working right.

When I was first learning to work on them, I let the hammer go too far forward during reassembly and didn't notice that the reset spring had slipped from above the hammer strut pin and went under it-- resulting in a weakened spring, along with complete disassembly/reassembly. That's how things go for those learning about guns by just taking them apart and putting them back together. There are DVD's on the subject.

 

[MLeake]

The gunsmith...

... had never heard of one breaking, either.

Not sure what slide I have. Stamped "made in W Germany" so it's older than the reunification. I bought it used in '95.

Rebounder spring is the only problem I've had with it, and it's eaten at least 5k rounds since I bought it; no idea how many rounds went through it before I owned it.