Sig 232: German vs. US reliability?

[Ignition Override]

My only handgun (among 12 milsurp rifles) is a WW2 Sauer 38H. Having read for months about the 232, people are always enthusiastic about its reliability etc.
The goal is to find objective info, not what is often sidetracked into a patriotic issue among many....

When a few people advise readers to only buy those manufactured in Germany (this stopped in '90?), they usually claim that those assembled in the US are not as dependable, but some don't appear as sincere when they mention "fit, finish" etc.

If the 232 says "Exeter NH", when it also is inscribed with "Made In Germany", then "Made In Germany" is not accurate (maybe just some parts) if the gun was Assembled in NH.
Does "Exeter NH" always indicate the production location, or was it simply the import facility for specific earlier examples?

 

[thedudeabides]

Frame Germany, Slide Exeter...

German guns will have the SN stamped on frame, barrel, and slide.

 

[Snyper]

The goal is to find objective info

When a company owns two manufacturing facilities that produce the same product, it is built from the same blueprints, the same materials and with the same tolerances and quality standards

To claim one is "superior" is usually false, and if they weren't stamped, I suspect you wouldn't be able to tell any difference at all

 

[AustinTX]

When a company owns two manufacturing facilities that produce the same product, it is built from the same blueprints, the same materials and with the same tolerances and quality standards

Except that isn't the case at all with SIG Sauer in Eckernförde, Germany (SIG Sauer GmbH) and SIG Sauer in Exeter, NH (SIG Sauer Inc.). SIG Sauer Inc. has been organizationally separate from SIG Sauer GmbH since 2000.

With the way Ron Cohen has run Exeter over the last decade, which is with a very different vision from the way things are done in Eckernförde, the quality of the products the two divisions turn out make them seem like entirely different companies. That wasn't always the case.

OP, I'm sure an Exeter P232 will work just fine. If you can find an all-German model, buy it instead.

 

[JeffK]

When a company owns two manufacturing facilities that produce the same product, it is built from the same blueprints, the same materials and with the same tolerances and quality standards

To claim one is "superior" is usually false, and if they weren't stamped, I suspect you wouldn't be able to tell any difference at all

This. You will hear anecdotes about this stamp being better than that stamp, but anecdotes are anecdotes. Here's another one - both my Made in USA P226 and my Made in Germany (but with Exeter NH stamp on the slide) P210 work perfectly fine. I've never seen any data to suggest that the Made in USA guns are any different or better or worse than the same models made in Germany.

 

[agent109]

Germans are renowned as the best machinists in the world. I agree and have come of the opinion that the Germans make the best guns in the world.

 

[AustinTX]

OP, if you speak with the Sig enthusiasts that actually have experience across many years with many different models, you'll find that the contention that Ron Cohen's execution of his Kimber playbook at Sig Sauer Inc. (Exeter/Newington) has resulted in a decline in quality and an increase in the rate of quality control issues is almost entirely uncontroversial. Today's American Sigs are definitely not bad guns at all, but they're also far from the guns that earned Sig Sauer its (once?) sterling reputation. One doesn't even need to make reference to the W. German or German models, really. The Exeter Sigs from before Cohen's tenure are in a different class from what Sig has churned out in recent times.

Again, the reference to "one company with two manufacturing facilities manufacturing the same product to the same standard" is entirely inapt in this case because Sig Sauer GmbH and Sig Sauer Inc. are organizationally independent of one another and have acted in divergent ways. Sig Sauer Inc. has the autonomy to implement its own changes to existing models and ideas for new ones, and Sig Sauer GmbH has the autonomy to execute its own vision. It's a simple fact that Exeter has increasingly replaced components in its established models with cheaper third-party-sourced components of often dubious quality (while increasing prices), resulting in more than a few episodes of functional issues. Again, the Kimber playbook in action. Eckernförde, on the other hand, has not made these changes.

The insistence on comprehensive tabulated data is a red herring, because everyone knows that's not publicly available. More important, it's also not necessary for spotting trends. The standard of "I have gun A and gun B, and both work fine" is also pretty powerless analytically if you're asking questions of quality (which you are). My SIG P210-5 and my Hungarian S&W 3rd generation/Hi-Power lovechild (FEG ACK) "both work fine."

In any case, I wouldn't belabor the point if you weren't specifically asking about such quality differences -- but you are. The truth is that any of them are very likely to "work fine." But there will be a component quality and fit-and-finish difference with the later American Sigs. If that matters to you, then you should avoid the recent American guns; if you find an Exeter Sig from before 2004, you can buy it with confidence. If, however, these differences are something you can overlook, then, as I've said, you're unlikely to have any problems (i.e., any of them will likely "work fine").

If you want additional information from someone with a thoroughly informed take, you could start by PMing forum member WVSig. I can suggest a number of other resources as well.

 

[Dragline45]

Mine had German import marks stamped into the left side of the slide, as well as made in Germany on the right side, but the frame said Exter, NH. The slide was made in Germany, shipped to NH, and assembled in NH.

With that said, it was 100% reliable even with various hollowpoints, and one of the most inherently accurate pistols I have ever shot, especially for its size. In rapid fire at 25-30ft offhand I have pulled off just over 1" groups.

 

[AK103K]

When a company owns two manufacturing facilities that produce the same product, it is built from the same blueprints, the same materials and with the same tolerances and quality standards

To claim one is "superior" is usually false, and if they weren't stamped, I suspect you wouldn't be able to tell any difference at all

Sounds good in theory, reality doenst always play out that way.

Prior to owning my P230's, I had a couple of Walther PPK's, a German PPK, and an early US made PPK/S. The German gun was flawless, the US gun, required a number of trips back to the factory, and was never made right. I wasnt the only one either, as a close friend who also had both, had a similar experience at the same time I did.

Now when it came to SIG's, I never had an issue. I had a number of both German made guns, and a number of US guns, and never had an issue with any of them. Well, except for the P238, which had its issues. To be fair though, it wasnt a true "P" series gun, and just another poorly executed 1911 copy.

My P230's (the 232's predecessor), were always one of my favorite all around guns. The one I have now, is the only SIG I have left, and one I wont let go. To much time together, and to many memories attached to let it go. I always found them accurate and reliable, and a great BUG to pretty much anything. They were much more plesant to shoot than the PPK's they replaced, and never once drew blood, like the blood thirsty Walthers.

As much as I like shooting the P230's, one thing I did notice right off, between it and the P238 (when it worked), was the difference in felt recoil. The P238 was a much softer shooting gun in comparison, which was surprising at first. Ive also noticed the same thing with my Glock 42's. The 230/232 are "blow back" guns, like most of their type, and do have a snappy disposition, where the 238 and 42, are locked breech, and are softer shooting. I always found the P230's well designed grip to lessen that snap, but when shot side by side with the others, it is still quite noticeable. Not a big deal, but if youre recoil sensitive, you may want to consider it.

I usually bring the 230 out with a number of other guns when someone wants to try a mix and see what they might like. The little guns are popular these days, but very often, arent real popular when people actually shoot them. My P230 and my 642 S&W, are two that usually get handed back pretty quick.

 

[Ignition Override]

Three friends "carry" the Polish P-64. Even when we exclude the heavy DA trigger pull, the gun's trigger guard really smacks your finger. Did not enjoy shooting these.

A few gun forum comments indicate that the Sig 230/232 is a fair bit more pleasant to shoot than the really snappy P-64. The Sig 232 can't be too much worse than my only handgun (ever): the 232's "father", the Sauer 38H.

My very first CCW permit is being processed in Nashville.
Thanks very much for the various comments and detailed evaluations.

 

[Dragline45]

Prior to owning my P230's, I had a couple of Walther PPK's, a German PPK, and an early US made PPK/S. The German gun was flawless, the US gun, required a number of trips back to the factory, and was never made right. I wasnt the only one either, as a close friend who also had both, had a similar experience at the same time I did.

I had the same experience. I just could not get my PPK to run reliably, only about 1 in 100 rounds would fail to eject, but that's enough for me to lose trust in it. My 232 on the other hand was flawless. Unfortunately I sold the 232 to fund another gun. I am still haunted by college loans and often have to sell a gun to get a gun

 

[Polglock]

I have p232's that are German and west German with German proof marks on them and they're awesome guns fit and reliability. I have one u.s. built one and its on par with its German safe mates. I carry a blued German made p232. So I trust it completely. On the other hand I also rotate a ppk built by smith and Wesson and it's utterly reliable and fit and finish is beautiful.

 

[SpareMag]

I have a 232.

I also have a W. German Sig P220 built like a tank, and newer P220s that are US mfg. it may be an age difference, but the W. German Sig feels more massive -I need to weigh them sometime. But, as I said, the W. German is older than my newer US Sigs, so specs may have changed.

As for the 232, I dont know if it is German or US...I assume US. In any event, it doesn't matter, it is a great pistol. You will enjoy it no mattrr where it came from.

 

[kat1950]

It is my understanding that all 232 are made in Germany, to all you who say you have American 232 I would like to know the source for this information, not internet chatter sources, I have talked with people at Sig at SHOT Show in 2009 and was informed all P232 are German made and assembled and none are made here.

If any are made here what year did it start.

 

[WVsig]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/06/foghorn/sig-sauer-produce-guns-us-2015/

SIG SAUER to Produce All Guns in US by 2015
By Nick Leghorn on June 30, 2014

At the moment, SIG SAUER is a company that straddles the Atlantic ocean. Most of their manufacturing is done at their Exeter and Newington plants in New Hampshire, but for the older models and some of the more high maintenance designs the guns are still manufactured at their plant in Germany. Guns like the P210, the higher polish X-FIVE and X-SIX series, and the P232 were being made in Germany and imported into the United States for sale, which made them much more expensive to manufacture and added import costs to the price tag. I had the opportunity to chat with Ron Cohen (above), the CEO of SIG SAUER, and one of the details that he let slip was that the company would be producing all of their guns in the US by 2015 . . .

Also look at this. I believe that in 2009 frames were still being produced in Germany but slides and assembly was done in the US for some guns. Also around this time lots of P232s came with no DE proof marks on the slide which may mean they were not produced in Germany or just might mean they were not designated for the German market.

http://www.sigsauer.com/AboutUs/News.aspx

The use of Nitron is also a big indicator or US production. IMHO Also any P232 that did not ship with a test target was not produced in Germany.

 

[kat1950]

I guess according to Ron Cohen the CEO of SIG SAUER, all 232 are made in Germany as of this date, proof marks regardless, and SIGARMS INC,EXETER-NH will be on slides on ones being totally made in Germany, if for any reason the importer.

I understood they were down from 500 employees to 200 in Germany, and the Hew Hampshire plant is up to 500 employees

Damn shame Sig Sauer totally being made in USA next year, I guess they are still better off than Umarex Walther out of Fort Smith. The death of 2 of the finest gun manufactures.

 

[agent109]

I own the German produced Sig Pro 2022 and my friend owns a USA made or integrated newer version out of NH. You can really see the difference when you tear them down side by side.

 

[rt11002003]

SIG 232

My p232 is German made, highly accurate and reliable. I wanted it in stainless. My dealer, who sells a high volume of SIGs., told me I'd likely wait as long to get one as it has taken to get the p210 I have on order. I ordered the p210 in March, expected delivery is the end of December. I bought his last p232.

I was lucky with my p226 X-6 and X-5 Competition, both were in stock here in the US. Sometimes the German made guns are in stock here at the factory.

I own a SIG 1911 .45 Target and a SIG 1911 .45 MAXM, both are US made. The MAXM has a better trigger than the Target, but has some special parts from EGW installed by SIG as a standard model. Neither of them have a trigger action as smooth and nice as the X-6 and the X-5. I shoot the X-6 better because it has an adjustable trigger pull; I have it set very light.

However, I watched a couple of guys shooting an X-5 at my local range the other day. They were shooting the center from the target, a one inch bulls eye, a piece at a time without breaking the line of the next ring..