You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Sig 220 .45 Question
- Thread starter jwong
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
First off, the Slide is steel not aluminium like the frame is. There is NO worry about the P220 ... it is a SOLID shooter.
It was dubbed "The Thinking Man's .45" for good reason. It is big and comfortable. It is more accurate than most shooters who own it. It is VERY reliable. SIG is in my opinion second only to HK. It is a duty gun.. made to shoot high powered rounds. I fired ONLY 230 Grain Hydra Shoks in mine... and it NEVER jamed. The guy I sold it to claimed he get jams every so often... Then he told me he was shooting UMC ammo. I was pissed. If I knew He was going to feed it crap I wouldn't have sold it to him!
Dang good gun. I hope one day to buy another one.
One Trick: Take the grips off... Slide on a Houge finger groove sleeve, then over that fit on the Hogue rubber grips for the 220. It will take a little stretching... and trim a little of the grip sleeve... but once you get it on - That big P220 locks into your hand like it was grown there!
I can't say enough about the HK USP .40 or the Sig P220 .45... Awesome.
Henrico PD has had some problems showing up in some of there 220's after almost 10 years of heavy service... and after 50,000 rounds some of the frames started to show some hairline cracks in the frame - where the rounds come out of the mag and strick the ramp into the barrel. But this problem is onthe in severly used guns and even then these guns were still very serviceable. 50,000 + rounds of 230 grain Hydra Shoks? That PROOVES how good the gun is!
DANG GOOD GUN.
It was dubbed "The Thinking Man's .45" for good reason. It is big and comfortable. It is more accurate than most shooters who own it. It is VERY reliable. SIG is in my opinion second only to HK. It is a duty gun.. made to shoot high powered rounds. I fired ONLY 230 Grain Hydra Shoks in mine... and it NEVER jamed. The guy I sold it to claimed he get jams every so often... Then he told me he was shooting UMC ammo. I was pissed. If I knew He was going to feed it crap I wouldn't have sold it to him!
Dang good gun. I hope one day to buy another one.
One Trick: Take the grips off... Slide on a Houge finger groove sleeve, then over that fit on the Hogue rubber grips for the 220. It will take a little stretching... and trim a little of the grip sleeve... but once you get it on - That big P220 locks into your hand like it was grown there!
I can't say enough about the HK USP .40 or the Sig P220 .45... Awesome.
Henrico PD has had some problems showing up in some of there 220's after almost 10 years of heavy service... and after 50,000 rounds some of the frames started to show some hairline cracks in the frame - where the rounds come out of the mag and strick the ramp into the barrel. But this problem is onthe in severly used guns and even then these guns were still very serviceable. 50,000 + rounds of 230 grain Hydra Shoks? That PROOVES how good the gun is!
DANG GOOD GUN.
Rob Pincus
New member
I enjoyed the one I had. In fact, it was the last gun I got rid of and I regret it, but it was well used and a guy offered me $500 bucks for it about a year and a half ago.
The only two things I didn't like about it were the limited mag capacity and the constant surface rust that kept showing up.
The city that I live closest to began issuing them about two years ago. They have had similar problems with surface rust. Too many officers are used to letting their guns sit in their hoslters for months at a time, so I think the fact that they have to keep the sigs well oiled and wiped down might be a hidden blessing. I highly recommend the hogue soft rubber grips.
BTW- you can buy from KY Imports for $449.99 in "very good" condition with Night Sights.
The only two things I didn't like about it were the limited mag capacity and the constant surface rust that kept showing up.
The city that I live closest to began issuing them about two years ago. They have had similar problems with surface rust. Too many officers are used to letting their guns sit in their hoslters for months at a time, so I think the fact that they have to keep the sigs well oiled and wiped down might be a hidden blessing. I highly recommend the hogue soft rubber grips.
BTW- you can buy from KY Imports for $449.99 in "very good" condition with Night Sights.
Jwong,
I transitioned from my sidearm of over a decade, a Security Six, to the Sig P220. Back when I bought my Sig, it was one of the two DA .45 ACP authorized for duty use. The other was the S&W 645. S&W had a higher magazine capacity (8 over the Sig's 7). While I liked that and the S&W's steel frame over the aluminum of the Sig, what won Sig over for me was the decocker lever.
S&W guns weren't ambidextreous in those days and I found that I could operate the decocker with my left trigger finger. Even the magazine release was easily manipulated with the left hand. With Sig being the easier of the two guns to use, I opted for it and never regretted it.
Sigs subjected to very severe use have been known to develop cracks, but so do other makes. Sig Academy's Geo. Harris reported that while small cracks can develop near the locking block like Kodiac mentioned, after a while it'll stop growing and the gun will still function. He added that when in doubt, send the gun back to Sig.
Turning to replacing parts, the only external thing I've replaced on my Sig are the sights. The original bar-dot was replaced with trijicon nite sights. Love them.
Another item worthy of consideration are the eight round magazines made by Sig. The eight & seven round magazines have the same tube, spring, & floorplate. The only difference is the follower. If you have to buy magazines, buy the eight rounders with padded floorplates. It's cheaper that way.
I once failed to tighten the grip screw enough and lost one. While awaiting for parts from VA, I secured my grip with a large rubber band which I blackened with a permanent marker. Years later grip makers make this overgrown rubber band to slide over the grips. (If I had brains like my father, I would have marketed it myself - & that's why I'm not rich. I don't take credit for their fancier rubber band).
Be careful with aftermarket grips, especially if you buy a used P220. The grips serve to help keep the trigger bar spring and to a limited extent, the decocker spring in place. If the grips dosen't fit right, these springs may work themselves out of place and opps...
You should also know that the grip frame was widened in the later models so as to meet a Fed Agency's Axe Test (axe dropped on on the trigger guard in an attempt to crush it and see whether the trigger could still be manipulated). So, some aftermarket grips (old stock) may not fit your Sig and problems can arise.
Also, if you plan on shooting +p loads, be sure you have the heavier +p spring which is green colored. If you get a used BDA (European model Sig P220 imported by Interarms in the mid '70s), these must be sent to SigArms USA for modification to take the green spring.
Turning to the issue of reliability, I did have jams with my 220. These may be attributable to the lead semi-wadcutters I was given as practice ammo. The Sig simply did not like it (had to feed it to my Colts). No problem with other ammunition though.
I've no regrets in selecting the Sig P220.
Rob, does KY Imports sell used P226 with high cap mags & if so, how much? I like the idea of a 9mm which fits in the same holster as the 220.
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-03-98).]
I transitioned from my sidearm of over a decade, a Security Six, to the Sig P220. Back when I bought my Sig, it was one of the two DA .45 ACP authorized for duty use. The other was the S&W 645. S&W had a higher magazine capacity (8 over the Sig's 7). While I liked that and the S&W's steel frame over the aluminum of the Sig, what won Sig over for me was the decocker lever.
S&W guns weren't ambidextreous in those days and I found that I could operate the decocker with my left trigger finger. Even the magazine release was easily manipulated with the left hand. With Sig being the easier of the two guns to use, I opted for it and never regretted it.
Sigs subjected to very severe use have been known to develop cracks, but so do other makes. Sig Academy's Geo. Harris reported that while small cracks can develop near the locking block like Kodiac mentioned, after a while it'll stop growing and the gun will still function. He added that when in doubt, send the gun back to Sig.
Turning to replacing parts, the only external thing I've replaced on my Sig are the sights. The original bar-dot was replaced with trijicon nite sights. Love them.
Another item worthy of consideration are the eight round magazines made by Sig. The eight & seven round magazines have the same tube, spring, & floorplate. The only difference is the follower. If you have to buy magazines, buy the eight rounders with padded floorplates. It's cheaper that way.
I once failed to tighten the grip screw enough and lost one. While awaiting for parts from VA, I secured my grip with a large rubber band which I blackened with a permanent marker. Years later grip makers make this overgrown rubber band to slide over the grips. (If I had brains like my father, I would have marketed it myself - & that's why I'm not rich. I don't take credit for their fancier rubber band).
Be careful with aftermarket grips, especially if you buy a used P220. The grips serve to help keep the trigger bar spring and to a limited extent, the decocker spring in place. If the grips dosen't fit right, these springs may work themselves out of place and opps...
You should also know that the grip frame was widened in the later models so as to meet a Fed Agency's Axe Test (axe dropped on on the trigger guard in an attempt to crush it and see whether the trigger could still be manipulated). So, some aftermarket grips (old stock) may not fit your Sig and problems can arise.
Also, if you plan on shooting +p loads, be sure you have the heavier +p spring which is green colored. If you get a used BDA (European model Sig P220 imported by Interarms in the mid '70s), these must be sent to SigArms USA for modification to take the green spring.
Turning to the issue of reliability, I did have jams with my 220. These may be attributable to the lead semi-wadcutters I was given as practice ammo. The Sig simply did not like it (had to feed it to my Colts). No problem with other ammunition though.
I've no regrets in selecting the Sig P220.
Rob, does KY Imports sell used P226 with high cap mags & if so, how much? I like the idea of a 9mm which fits in the same holster as the 220.
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-03-98).]
Rob Pincus
New member
yes, the 226's are 389.99, (+$60 for Night Sites), BUT, they want $89 for a 15 round magazine. I don't think that the $389.99 offer includes a high cap mag, but "Bachman Pawn & Gun" (A wholesale house in Texas) if offering used 15 round Sig mags for $34. ( I may be ordering a couple of these for my 228, they fit...)
BTW- thanks for the good 220 info, Gary. Maybe you can answer this one:
How long has it been since SigArms was in Tysons Corner, VA ??
(more specifically, if I have a Sig 226 on loan that I may purchase with that marked on the slide, how old is it likely to be?)
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 11-03-98).]
BTW- thanks for the good 220 info, Gary. Maybe you can answer this one:
How long has it been since SigArms was in Tysons Corner, VA ??
(more specifically, if I have a Sig 226 on loan that I may purchase with that marked on the slide, how old is it likely to be?)
[This message has been edited by Rob (edited 11-03-98).]
ShadedDude
New member
well with all that said...I will just ad my $.01, which is all thats left to say!
Sig makes a great gun. You will not regret buying one.
Sig makes a great gun. You will not regret buying one.
Until today, I fully endorsed the previous comments about the Sig220. Today at the practice range my Sig 220, with a total of about 1500 rounds through it, went fully auto. How this happened I do not know, it is on its way to the armorer. I don't know if I will ever have confidence in it again. Bring back my politically incorrect government model. - Doc
[This message has been edited by Doc (edited 11-04-98).]
[This message has been edited by Doc (edited 11-04-98).]
Doc,
Got some questions if can you trouble yourself to answer them. Was your gun new when you bought it and if not, about how old?
The 1500 rounds, is that the total rounds fired while the gun was owned by you?
Was the gun dirty (light surface dirt only, heavy with lots of gunk in the internal mechanism) when it went full auto?
Was the trigger depressed when it was shooting full auto?
What make ammunition?
When was the last time your firearm was serviced by your armorer?
Finally, please ask your armorer what he found when he dissassembled it. I curious as to the condition of the sear, sear spring, spring pin (heavy duty) for sear spring, disconnector tab and the dished out portion of the slide for the disconnector.
Thanks.
Rob - don't know when SigSauer moved but mine is marked Tyson Corner and I bought it in '87.
4V50
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-03-98).]
Got some questions if can you trouble yourself to answer them. Was your gun new when you bought it and if not, about how old?
The 1500 rounds, is that the total rounds fired while the gun was owned by you?
Was the gun dirty (light surface dirt only, heavy with lots of gunk in the internal mechanism) when it went full auto?
Was the trigger depressed when it was shooting full auto?
What make ammunition?
When was the last time your firearm was serviced by your armorer?
Finally, please ask your armorer what he found when he dissassembled it. I curious as to the condition of the sear, sear spring, spring pin (heavy duty) for sear spring, disconnector tab and the dished out portion of the slide for the disconnector.
Thanks.
Rob - don't know when SigSauer moved but mine is marked Tyson Corner and I bought it in '87.
4V50
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-03-98).]
My Sig was brand new 8-31-98.(late model) Total ammo 1500 rounds - all fired by me. The weapon is kept meticulously clean after every session. (My daddy taught me to feed my horse and clean my gun before supper more years ago than I wish to disclose.) 150 rounds practice today, 200gr LSWC, 6.0gr WW231, CCI primer. Followed practice with a magazine of 230gr Federal Hydrashock. This is when it went haywire.
Trapdoor Billy
New member
JWong,
Go for it, got 3 220's, 2 .45's and 1 .38 Super, love all 3. No problems with any of them.
Go for it, got 3 220's, 2 .45's and 1 .38 Super, love all 3. No problems with any of them.
Gary, upon partial disassembly, the armorer found what he thought to be excessive "tuning" of the trigger system including some work that should never have been done. The gun had been sent to a highly reputed smith near Houston, TX, who is "known" for his very conservative trigger jobs, especially for LEOs. This smith is listed in several references as a highly qualified trigger man, some even say the best. The armorer is disassembling my gun completely and will give me a final verdict sometime next week. I'm afraid I will have to buy a new SIG220 to feel comfortable using it for a duty weapon.
[This message has been edited by Doc (edited 11-05-98).]
[This message has been edited by Doc (edited 11-05-98).]
One of the most accurate handguns I have ever fired. I've rarely seen competition handguns shoot as accurately as the Sig 220 right out of the box.
My friend has put well over 2000 rounds into his and have not had any problems with it. I've heard some wear and tear stories but have not personally seen any myself.
My friend has put well over 2000 rounds into his and have not had any problems with it. I've heard some wear and tear stories but have not personally seen any myself.
Doc,
The good news is that you won't have to buy a new Sig. Provided the frame hasn't been modified, all your armorer has to do is replace the altered parts with new factory parts and your Sig should behave as normal. The bad news is old news. Save your money.
One thing all manufacturers of new duty weapons recommend is not to allow any modifications on the firearm (OK, so S&W allows for some fitting on specific parts). Unlike a 1911 where everybody makes adjustments, if something doesn't work on a service gun, replace it and restore it to factory spec. Glock, Beretta, Sig, Ruger and S&W (with specific exceptions) all advocate this. About the only thing factories won't frown upon are new sights. For patrol officers this is especially critical since relability is #1. Never mind smooth triggers or light triggers. The gun has to work. Period.
I suspect your gun went full auto because the sear did not engage the hammer's safety notch (or the sear spring was ineffectual). The bearing surface of these two parts was probably nominal.
So long as the trigger finger keeps the trigger pressed, the trigger bar is kept to the rear, thereby engaging the safety lever and keeping it in the raised position. The safety lever engages the firing pin safety lock (firing pin block), allowing for forward movement of the firing pin.
Under these conditions, the gun will continue firing until the trigger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted or interrupted.
An instructor from the US Customs told me of a broken firing pin which was stuck forward (too much dry firing w/out a snap cap) and the went full auto. Luckily, the shooter was also an instructor who, keeping collected, kept the muzzle downrange and dropped the magazine.
Doc, thanks for sharing the info and I'm glad that you reported no injuries. Please keep me informed as to what else your armorer has to report.
Gary
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-06-98).]
The good news is that you won't have to buy a new Sig. Provided the frame hasn't been modified, all your armorer has to do is replace the altered parts with new factory parts and your Sig should behave as normal. The bad news is old news. Save your money.
One thing all manufacturers of new duty weapons recommend is not to allow any modifications on the firearm (OK, so S&W allows for some fitting on specific parts). Unlike a 1911 where everybody makes adjustments, if something doesn't work on a service gun, replace it and restore it to factory spec. Glock, Beretta, Sig, Ruger and S&W (with specific exceptions) all advocate this. About the only thing factories won't frown upon are new sights. For patrol officers this is especially critical since relability is #1. Never mind smooth triggers or light triggers. The gun has to work. Period.
I suspect your gun went full auto because the sear did not engage the hammer's safety notch (or the sear spring was ineffectual). The bearing surface of these two parts was probably nominal.
So long as the trigger finger keeps the trigger pressed, the trigger bar is kept to the rear, thereby engaging the safety lever and keeping it in the raised position. The safety lever engages the firing pin safety lock (firing pin block), allowing for forward movement of the firing pin.
Under these conditions, the gun will continue firing until the trigger is released or the ammunition supply is exhausted or interrupted.
An instructor from the US Customs told me of a broken firing pin which was stuck forward (too much dry firing w/out a snap cap) and the went full auto. Luckily, the shooter was also an instructor who, keeping collected, kept the muzzle downrange and dropped the magazine.
Doc, thanks for sharing the info and I'm glad that you reported no injuries. Please keep me informed as to what else your armorer has to report.
Gary
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-06-98).]
Doc,
Like a gunsmith, LE armorers are meticulous record keepers and have to document what work was performed on the firearm. In the case of your Sig, he may even keep the parts. So long as this is done, and your armorer keeps his training up to date, you should have no problem with your gun in court.
Besides, plaintiff's attorney would have to make a discovery motion for the gun's history. Most of the time, they'll only want the armorer's report on the condition of the gun at the time of the shooting. The report is prepared to preclude any claim of unintentional discharge because of weapons malfunction or to determine whether any of the basic designs were altered.
This is where deep pocket liability comes into play. If the gun has unauthorized modifications at the time of the incident, the mfg/importer tries to disclaim any responsibility for the design or manufacture of the gun. Thus, they free themselves of liability.
But I suppose I'm getting ahead of myself and you should consult with an attorney in your state.
BTW, were you trained in how to perform the function check? Ask your armorer or range master if you haven't.
Gary
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-06-98).]
Like a gunsmith, LE armorers are meticulous record keepers and have to document what work was performed on the firearm. In the case of your Sig, he may even keep the parts. So long as this is done, and your armorer keeps his training up to date, you should have no problem with your gun in court.
Besides, plaintiff's attorney would have to make a discovery motion for the gun's history. Most of the time, they'll only want the armorer's report on the condition of the gun at the time of the shooting. The report is prepared to preclude any claim of unintentional discharge because of weapons malfunction or to determine whether any of the basic designs were altered.
This is where deep pocket liability comes into play. If the gun has unauthorized modifications at the time of the incident, the mfg/importer tries to disclaim any responsibility for the design or manufacture of the gun. Thus, they free themselves of liability.
But I suppose I'm getting ahead of myself and you should consult with an attorney in your state.
BTW, were you trained in how to perform the function check? Ask your armorer or range master if you haven't.
Gary
[This message has been edited by 4V50 Gary (edited 11-06-98).]
Armorer reported that the frame is cracked. We don't know if that was from the full auto activity or not. Regardless, the weapon is going back to Sigarms for whatever they can do for it. Maybe they weill take pity on a poor LEO, maybe not. In any event, whether from Sig or from the market there will be a new SIG220 in my duty holster. - Doc
Doc,
One of the inherent danger of a semiauto pistol going full auto is possible damage to the gun. Thankfully no one was injured. In my humble opinion, if Sig doesn't replace it, the gunsmith should since he's more culpable than Sig. Negligence has its penalties. Thanks for updates.
Gary
One of the inherent danger of a semiauto pistol going full auto is possible damage to the gun. Thankfully no one was injured. In my humble opinion, if Sig doesn't replace it, the gunsmith should since he's more culpable than Sig. Negligence has its penalties. Thanks for updates.
Gary
- Status
- Not open for further replies.