Sierra 110 grain “2110”

[akinswi]

Im having issues working a load in MY M1 for 110 grain bullets.

I can never seem to get them to group very well. I know some people have had great success with them. Before I commit more of what it seems like dewidling resources “Primers and Powder.” I would Like some advice

Would you maybe change seating depth (sierra lists at 3.10) or do I need to go down or up in powder charge I have been around 49 to 51 grains of IMR 4895 been using Magnum Primers. I do not have access to a chronograph. I have been able to work up some great loads on 168 SMKS by just comparing groups . So I was hoping to do the same on the 110s

I almost think the 1/10 twist maybe to fast for these shorter projectiles, But was thinking maybe trying to slow the velocity down on them

Components,

Powder: IMR 4895
Bullet: sierra 2110
Case: Norma
Primer: CCI 250s
Case Trim Length 2.484

Thanks
Will

 

[44 AMP]

My advice, though you may not like it, is to forget about shooting 110gr bullets from an M1 Garand.

They are a size and weight that pretty optimal for a .30 Carbine, but seem to be sub-optimal (usually in group accuracy) in larger .30 caliber cases. I've used them in .308Win and in .30-06 (though not in an M1) and my experience is, no matter what you do, they just don't perform as well as longer, heavier bullets, overall. 125/130gr spitzers do tolerably well and 150 and up is what the 06 was made for, and specifically, what the Garand was made for.

You CAN run other weights but you rarely get the same level of performance, and some combinations just won't perform adequately (for me, anyway) no matter what.

Accept the limits of the engine and run it on the fuel it was designed for, and you generally get the best results. Run your Ferrarri on corn gas and it will move down the road but neither you, nor the car will be happy with the way it does...

Sell or trade those 110s to someone with a carbine, and go back to using more suitable bullets for the M1 Garand.

 

[akinswi]

I was getting to that conclusion my self. But they are fun to shoot 2 liter bottles at 50 and 100yds . May Just load a few enbloc clips just for that and not worry about a target load for em.

Have you had any luck shooting the FB 150 bergers out of your M1? They seem kinda pricey but figured with the FB they should shoot well out of an M1

 

[Unclenick]

I still haven't tested the 200 I got earlier this year, but they should do about as well as the gun can.

If you want to run the 2110 at about 3100 fps, you could get a custom Garand barrel made with a 19" twist and see if that doesn't do a little better.

 

[44 AMP]

If you want to run the 2110 at about 3100 fps, you could get a custom Garand barrel made with a 19" twist and see if that doesn't do a little better.

1-9" twist for short light bullets...hmmm

Actually, I'm wondering if one shouldn't go the other way....

I'm far from an expert on twist rates and bullets but I can't help remembering the .243win and .244 Remington example.

And, also, more recently the AR twist rates for long heavy bullets.

You need a faster twist to stabilize LONG bullets, not short ones. (don't you??)

The .244 Rem originally had a 1-12" twist. The .243 win was 1-9". Both shot well with the light (and short) varmint bullets, but the .244 wouldn't shoot well with the long heavy (105gr) deer bullets and the .243 did.

Remington did change the twist to a faster 1-10 or 1-9 after a couple years but the "word was out" that the .244 wouldn't handle deer slugs. Remington renamed the round 6mm Rem and used the faster twist, but it never caught the .243's popularity.

The standard Colt AR-15 used a 1-12" twist, for the 55gr bullet that was the standard when the rifles were first made. today, guys are shooting 70, and even 90 gr bullets and using barrels with 1-9 or even 1-7" twist rates to do that.

SO, isn't the right thing (or the best thing) for accurately shooting the short .30 cal 110 bullets a SLOWER twist???

or am I barking up the wrong tree here??

 

[akinswi]

44 AMP

I think he said a 1/19 twist rate not 1/9.

Unclenick,

Let me know how those bergers do, Im assuming your using Vihtavuori
N140?

I was thinking of trying to use lighter load down in the 45 to 46 range too see if I could slow the velocity down in the faster twist.

But goes back to diminishing returns, do I want to waste powder and primers when I have a magic load with the 168s.

That was another question I had, do you work up a load for each batch of brass you have lets say you bought 100 new cases of winchester brass from a different lot do you work up a new load for that lot or retain your old data for same manufacture,

 

[44 AMP]

you could get a custom Garand barrel made with a 19" twist and see if that doesn't do a little better.

I assumed a 19" twist was a typo for 1-9" twist, as 1-19" is way uncommon in .30 cal rifles, but I'm sure Uncle Nick will set this straight the next time he checks in.

say you bought 100 new cases of winchester brass from a different lot do you work up a new load for that lot or retain your old data for same manufacture,

Generally I don't work up a new load for a different batch of brass, unless randomly weighing a few cases shows the new batch to be more than 2-3% different from the old batch.

But, I'm not loading for, or shooting rifles tuned to get the Nth degree of accuracy, either. None of my guns are "match grade" in any way, and I don't compete in matches, either, so "rack grade" and "as issued" works for me.

 

[44 AMP]

On doing a little more research, I now realize I was likely in error to assume 19" twist was meant to be 1-9" twist. Its quite possible Uncle Nick did mean a 1-19" twist rate as the optimum for the 110gr bullets.

The US .30 Carbine, designed around a 110gr .30 cal bullet uses a 1-18" twist, so a 1-19" isn't the unusual thing I thought it was.

 

[akinswi]

He usually is spot on. He has helped me alot in my reloading practices and his knowledge has really helped me get the most out of my M1.

 

[Unclenick]

Gents, actually, I optimized that for the Sierra 2110 110-grain Varminter HP bullet Akinswi said he is using. I used the stability estimator on the JBM site and their 0.795" bullet length listing and 3000 fps in a standard atmosphere. I was aiming for a stability factor of 1.5. With hollow points, the calculator tends to underestimate stability, so a 20" twist would probably work. I also assumed it was for target shooting. At that twist rate, it would likely fade somewhere between 0°F and 32°F.

G.I. carbine barrels were 18" in length, standard, but the twist is 20", AFAIK. This is for the even shorter RN FMJs. With them, it is more than adequate at 1975 fps (about the actual MV for the cartridge in a test barrel). Even at just 1500 fps, at -40, it would meet Sierra's "hunting accuracy" stability criteria from a 20" twist. But that bullet is quite short; about 2/3", IIRC.

 

[akinswi]

Unclenick,

So what would the bullet be spinning at out of 1/10 twist barrel at 3000 FPS? Are we talking 200,000 here or am I way off? Im assuming the bullet rotation would be half as much in a 1/19 or 1/20.

I wanted to experiment with slowing down the velocity too see if it would tighten up the groups with the faster twist at what charge level are we talking 50% or less in case fill? would I need to worry about possible detonation? Im not worried about cycling the bolt .

 

[44 AMP]

Ok, so I went back and look, and this time used my glasses and a good light so as not to misread the rather small print...

My old battered Speer #11 says the GI .30 carbine and the Universal .30 carbine used a 1-16" twist (one in sixteen) hmmpf!

It also says the Marlin 62 used a 1-20" twist.

So a calculated 1-19" for the Sierra 110gr JHP could be just right.

I did a lot of shooting early on with Speer 110gr "Varminter" bullets and also with the 100 gr plinkers out of 1-10" .308 Winchester and accuracy was always not as good as the longer 125-130gr and up.

Fine for plinking and popping pests at shorter ranges, for serious accuracy work, not so much...

 

[Unclenick]

Akinswi:

RPM = 720 × fps/pitch (in inches)

So: RPM = 720 × 3000 / 10 = 216,000 rpm.

You win the gold star.



44 AMP,

Interesting about the twist. My Hornady manual says they used a 16" twist. My old Vihtavuori manual says they used a 10" twist. My Sierra manual says they used a 20" twist. SAAMI uses 20". So do Lyman and Hodgdon, but that's probably because they use SAAMI test barrels. So there is some variety out there. But TM9-1276 (p.9) puts it at 20", so I am thinking SAAMI copied the military for that.

 

[akinswi]

This May be off topic but I could those 110s for my winchester 94 in 30-30 wcf. Im assuming should be ok to use in a tubular magazine due to the HP and not sitting directly on the primer of the adjacent round. No idea on the Twist its post 64 tho so nothing special.

 

[44 AMP]

Looking at the picture in the link Uncle Nick provided, I would be very leery of using that bullet in a Winchester type (straight) tubular magazine.

The open point of the HP MIGHT be large enough to not risk setting off the primer ahead of it, but its difficult to tell without looking at them both together, and, while a lead flat point of that size might be fine, the JHP's "point" is "hard" copper jacket, which could cause a problem I'd just as soon avoid.

The other reason is that the bullet has no cannelure. there is no good spot to crimp. Crimping matters more in a tube magazine rifle, because unlike other designs, in the tube feed system the round is subject not just to bullet movement from recoil but ALSO subject to force pushing the bullet into the case. The pressure of the magazine spring and all the rounds in the tube ahead of it, and the sudden "slam to a stop" on the rounds in the magazine when you feed a round through the action can matter.

I wouldn't be happy relying ONLY on neck tension (or a taper crimp) to keep the bullet in its proper place. Use in a Win 94? fine, single load into the chamber, great. Stuff the tube full of them? I'll pass on that, thanks.