Should we be playing God?

[Jack 99]

Non-firearms related but wanted some opinions.

We will soon, maybe even right now (unbeknownst to the masses), be able to engineer a human.

Should we? Do we have the wisdom? I think we're opening a can of worms that ain't gonna be pretty. Can we, for instance, forsee a day when you could clone yourself for parts? What about the clone?

I'd rather mankind not go down this road. Its fraught with peril.

 

[Andrewh]

Perhapes. I have always pondered the question. Some of us have physical problems that could be fixed if we could engineer a new body. (Now and again) There would be no waiting to die on a transplant list.(This touches closer to home, as I have a friend that just got hers, but if she had not, would only have a few more weeks to live.) If you question this part of science, then you must question all the others. Do we have the right to be able to kill off millions of people with the push of a button. This needless killing should be judged on the same grounds as the ability to create life. Morality is a fleeting thing, defined by religion, changing over the centuries as the people decide they do not like them. If we could clone a person and then transfer their conscousness(sp) to the new body, or even create the body they wanted, how wrong is this? If we could just create the organ you needed, is this better? Are we playing God? If everything God does can be recreated by man, then what does that say? Free will only goes so far. If the secrets of the universe is all that seperates us from being God, what does that say about God? Lends the the theory that what we perceive as God is just an advanced alien. (which I do not believe). And like the atomic bomb, once the box is open, you can not put what you found back in. Someone else will use the work whether we find it ethical or not, and create with it. Why not use it to make the world a better place. It is all technology(like the gun) what you use it for defines the good and bad. Creating a clone to harvest organs is a debatable thing whether good or evil it helps man kind. The thing created for the task will know no pain or suffering. While creating a race of sub-human, sub-intellegent beings to be slaves and do mans drugery is evil. This group will know nothing but toil and labor. You could program into them the love of work(1984) but that does not make it right. HEre is a clear cut bad use for the new tech. Sorry just rambeling on. I can argue for either side. Can't help but play devils advocate some times. I believe though that thoughtful use will benifit the world. If you don't want to use this for what it is good, then all the vaccines and drugs should be taken off the market too. Survival of the fittest. Of course God is taking care of that too. Incurable diseases, and our vaccines and antibiotics are now becoming usless.

 

[beemerb]

The problem has never been the knowledge but use man has put it to.

------------------
beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain

 

[Hard Ball]

Bbeemerb is right. Any advanced technology can be used for good or evil and is usually used for both.

 

[Jack 99]

Something tells me this particular technology has a new set of perils that, say, uncorking the Nuclear Genie didn't.

We're about to have the keys to the car, so to speak, for the first time. This is about manipulating life at basic levels and literally, "playing God" in respect to making decisions about what and how life will be transformed. We can give life new shapes and charactersitics, essentially making life forms in the lab. Some will be mistakes.

For some reason, when I think of this stuff, I remember a story about Dr. Mengele and how he had sewn two twins, a boy and girl, together and even interconnected some of their vital organs and connected thier arteries. The children's parents had to smother them. There is no depth to the vileness of some people and often they justify thier actions as being "in the name of science."

I hope humankind is wiser and more noble than I give us credit for.

 

[pax]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We're about to have the keys to the car, so to speak, for the first time. This is about manipulating life at basic levels and literally, "playing God" in respect to making decisions about what and how life will be transformed. We can give life new shapes and charactersitics, essentially making life forms in the lab. Some will be mistakes.[/quote]

Which reminds me of the scientist, having a conversation with the Almighty. "We don't need you anymore," the scientist bragged. "We can create a human being just like you did way back when. Begone!"

The Almighty nodded thoughtfully. "All right. I will leave you alone if you will demonstrate to me that you can create people just as I did. Show me."

The scientist laughed. "Nothing easier! Here, watch this." He placed a handful of raw materials into a test tube.

The Almighty stopped him. "Uh uh, you gotta get your own dirt."


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"When stupidity is a sufficient explanation, there is no need to have recourse to any other." -- Mitchell Ulmann

 

[Erik]

I think the issue offers interesting challnges to established religions. It will be interesting to see how they come together to answer them.

 

[Mulio Rex]

You don't need a clone just to harvest an organ, you simply grow what you need.
We (as in humanity) are growing skin quite handily in the lab right this very day.
...furtermore, its a rather simple task to cause a clone to be grown lacking certian organs/body systems... Like the higher central nervous system. Brainless mice are being grown with some success. (My two personal favorite gene splicing trials are the biolumenscent mice and those that grow a human ear on thier back[two strains of those rights and lefts])

For all you christ-folk out there: If the lord said take dominion over the beasts, then gene-splicing is surely ultimate dominion.


------------------
Big Guns again
No speakee well
But plain.
--H.C

 

[Coinneach]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mulio Rex:
(My two personal favorite gene splicing trials are the biolumenscent mice and those that grow a human ear on thier back[two strains of those rights and lefts])
[/quote]

OK, the glow-in-the-dark thing I could see, since it benefits my beloved feline friends... but a human ear on the back? That falls into the category of five-assed monkeys.

 

[Hydejam]

As was mentioned earlier, there are both good and bad uses to anything. The internet being a prime example, no explanation necessary.

If you believe in God, or a Creator, then you may well believe in the "spirit" that dwells inside the ol' genetic lump of flesh. All the speculation on cloning oneself and the whole reincarnation issue then, is completely asinine.

I sincerely hope that IGNORANCE doesn't veil itself behind certain religious thought and monkey wrench the huge upside to genetic research, specifically human tissue cloning.

The upside is the tremendous benefit for people with various cancers, nerve and muscle degenerative diseases, spinal cord injuries, etc. Everytime there has been a fantastic scientific breakthrough (such as the polio and small pox vaccines) there have always been religious detractors talking about going against God's will. Say that to the millions upon millions of God's children that have been spared from the ravages of such diseases.

Same thing applies here. Many people are ignoring the real issues here. I think we need to focus on the marvelous benefits that await mankind from such genetic research and quit focusing on silliness such as Hollywood actors "reincarnating" themselves or someone bringing back to life Adolf Hitler.

I just love how people take something like this, ignore the true science of it, and get into all the bogus speculation & sensationalistic aspects of the issue.

We sometimes fail to realize how much we have benefitted from a medical standpoint thus far in our history, probably much to God's happiness, by using the brains He gave us.

 

[Kframe]

For the past few decades medical science has been able to "save" people that probably ought to have died if Mother Nature had her way.
Most obviously are very premature babies that now can be keep warm, artificially ventilated, and fed by means unavailable thirty years ago.
Babies that would have been universally accepted as non-viable are now going home as healty babies after a long stay in the NICU.

Accept for those that argue the overpopulation thing, not too many people are opposed to this.

However, medical science is also able to keep someone's heart beating for years after it "should've" stopped on its own.
I think, that the public, and some health professionals have decided that life=good 7 death=bad.
Oh come on.
Every single one of us will die at some point.
Sometimes, in my opinion, it is much "healthier" for the patient and the family if the patient is allowed to die with dignity.
(Which also drags up the Kevorkian thing, which I'm not going to get into here.)

Anyway, aside from all of the ethical/moral issues surrounding complete human cloning or even the cloning of an organ or some connective tissue; there is a very real legal issue.

Currently, the courts recognize, and rely heavily, on DNA evidence.
If your DNA, as the defendent, is found at a crime scene or on/in a victim you are very likely going to be convicted.
Which is fine.... for now.

But, if you or your parts are cloned and the sum of all those cells are not in your immediate possession, there is a risk that your DNA can be "borrowed" and planted by a criminal (who may have access to some of your cells) or possibly by an agency interested in seeing you convicted.

Far fetched?

Yeah, so were murders by six-year olds until recently.

It's worth a thought.


Furthermore, and with a present threat, have you ever made a "deposit" at a sperm bank?
Well, if you did, and are ever charged with a crime in which some of your DNA was found at the scene, you would be well-advised to make sure your "sample" is still completely intact and secure at the "bank".
It may also help your defense (I'm assuming you would be innocent; I don't like giving advice to BG's.) to demand the investigation of personnel that have access to your "sample".

As unfortunate as it is, there are criminals employed at hospitals and clinics.

Don't go to jail for something somebody else did.

Just my $.02, -Kframe

 

[KL2001]

I like the responses that people have posted, you are looking at both sides of the issue. ALot of people don't, and say it's automatically wrong. I believe that it is right to just grow individual organs, you are not creating a new being,, so there isn't the question of is it a living being. I support it for the main reason that at 17, I'm looking at a kidney transplant within the year, and anther one about every ten years. Try finding donors each and every time. also, after the donors are found, you still have the Immunosuppresants that supress your immune system, stalling rejection, but also leaving you without much protection against viruses. With cloning you could reduce the amount of immunosuppressants, and maybe even stop them entirely. Cloning organs would lead to much better lives for people recieving transplants.

Kris

 

[Donny]

Are we playing God when we discover we've contracted an operable cancer, and elect to take the "cure"?
Were our ancestors able to do the same thing centuries ago?

What beholds us in a century, or two? Will we even need surgery, as we define it today? Most likely not, cancer would be something removed without destructive process, or even before the egg is fertilized.

Splitting the atom has yeilded the technology to have CAT Scan, MRI type medical equiptment.

Lasers, once thought to be only suitable for military purposes, are used to correct vision problems, and clear blocked arteries.

Genetic engineering, has the potential to be used in a manner to rival anything we humans have ever conceived.
OTOH, it also has the potential to be u=sed in a manner so perverse, that the human race may never recover.

Consider, genetically altered corn. There is a fairly sized debate whether we should be doing this with food sources. The Euro community has all but banned American grain because of this attribute. The saying, "You are what you eat". may have something to do with this. The Mad Cow disease might be a good parallel for their logic. Though it seems this is temporarily confined to the Euro herds.

Genetic engineering may very well be the Pandoras Box, we've all heard about sinece childhood.

Best Regards,
Don

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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
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"Corrupt the young, get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial, and destroy their rugged- ness.
Get control of all means of publicity, and thereby get the peoples' mind off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books and plays, and other trivialities.
Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance."

Vladimir Ilich Lenin, former leader of USSR

 

[Waitone]

Technology has always presented "personkind" with the dilemma of "Can" vs "Should." This technology will only amplify the problem. Knowledge and technology answers the question of "Can we do . . . " Wisdom concerns itself with "Should we do . . . " Wisdom is ultimately based in your understanding of God, who he is, what he is, and what he expects of his creation.

To the extent that man seeks to achieve godhood, the question of "should" rapidly disappears and "can" ultimately becomes "should." We will do something just because we can. This mapping of the genome (sp) will provide unbelieveable technology for good and unparallelled opportunity for evil. I maintain that the technology the US had developed in the last 20 years is setting the stage for a totalitarian government the likes of which Hitler, Stalin, and Mao only dreamed. The only thing standing in the way politically is a yellow scrap of paper written 200+ years ago. Religiously, only those who believe that man is NOT god stand in the way. Lose either barrier and we are in for some tough times.

 

[Ledbetter]

Since these issues will no doubt be regulated by the government, the government will no doubt allow such experimentation so long as someone, or some corporation, is willing to make the appropriate "contributions" to election campaign funds. Thus will these powers, too, pass to the highest bidder.

Ledbetter

 

[beemerb]

How about enginered solders,faster stronger with no nerve endings for pain and totaly
responsive to commands no matter what they are.I think this could very easely happen with some of the people in control.Manipulation without peoples knowledge and so forth.I think everyone here has a fear of what could happen with the removeal of firearms from the public.This could be much worse and I have no faith in the goverment useing it wisely.It is not in itself right or wrong as I said in a early post but can the people in power be trusted with it?

------------------
beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain

 

[Mulio Rex]

Coinneach: The ear-mice are for reconstructive surgery parts.

Beemerb: Scary thought about the super troopers, but not really much of a possibility.
Genetic manipulation doesent give you the ability to instill utter obediance.
Warriors are trained not made, besides you would still have to wait 15-20 years for your
lil' genespliced soldati to grow up.

------------------
Big Guns again
No speakee well
But plain.
--H.C

 

[beemerb]

Unless you boosted growth factors could maybe be done in 10.Brainwashing is easy at those ages ie Hitler youth only more so

------------------
beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain

 

[RikWriter]

At this point "should" is a moot question. If we don't do it here in the US, the Chinese will, or the Europeans or the Japanese. You can't un-invent knowledge...if it can be done, it will be done.

 

[Art Eatman]

Considering that almost every technological breakthrough in human history has had the potential for good or evil...

The moral view has varied over time, depending on "whose ox was gored". The crossbow and then the longbow proved that the elite knight could be brought down as easily as the serf. Bows were thus "evil".

When anesthetics were first discovered, they were regarded by some as "against God's will", since we were supposed to know pain.

Generalizing, civilized societies have always been too slow to stomp on those who would misuse ANY technology in a detrimental manner. France of the 1930s comes to mind; they easily could have stopped Hitler absolutely cold, but lacked the will.

Overall, given the complexities and costs of genetic work in laboratories, I'd say we have a decade or five to develop controls against misuse. (I say this because, after almost 60 years, most countries' technology does not allow construction of an A-bomb "from scratch", and it does no good to try to steal a roomful of gene-enhanced "soldati".) The issue, as always, is the will.

Regards, Art