shotgun tech in a rut?!?!

[seansean1444]

does anybody else think that shotgun technology is in a rut?? why arnt we seeing more shotguns fed by external mags like the saiga?? having a magazine tube that is part of the gun is like having a 5rd fixed mag (like on a mosin) on an ar platform. i think shotguns have much more potential than what they are. personally i think the future "combat" or tacticool shotguns are going to be mag fed. lets hear what u think

 

[Mayor Al]

I am a Saiga S-12 owner, and casual shooter, not deeply into shooting research. In theory, the magazine load is the future as I see it. As the state of the art progresses in that direction, several things must happen to make the magazine load work.

1. A more uniform agreement is needed between the states about capacity and shape (drums?). Not very likely, but needed.

2. Easier handling mags to facilitate reloading. I am a bit clumsey, and have a difficult time trying to insert the Mag to my Saiga using only one hand. The Last Round Bolt-open device is vital for that. In most situations, for me, reloading requires two hands.

3. The longer stick Mags are 'gawky' to use. Heavy and they stick out far below the gun making the balance change at a time when change is not good. I speak of the 10 round stick for the Saiga in this case. The 12 rounder is worse.

I carry one 5 round mag in the gun, and two 5 rounders in my shooting vest for feeding time. So far that has worked well for me. Next weekend is Hog Hunt time for us, and we'll see how that load set-up works in a 'combat-hunting situation'.

I do know that I can be well into my second Five-round mag before my companion has his 12 gauge ready to go with his second set of 4 rounds.

 

[seansean1444]

exactly! haha. even if you can only have 10 round mags?? maybe that will be the uniform law you speak of who knows but it is still much faster to drop a mag out of the gun and slap in a new one than pushing shells 1 by one into a tube on the gun. suprised the military doesnt have a good amount of funding in this idea

 

[hogdogs]

A solution to a non existent problem?

First of all, COMBAT or TACTI-whatever in the hands of a hired "force" don't need the box style removable magazines... There simply isn't a need.

They are not the primary weapon of a fighting force and have limited uses in said force so the ammo quantity required is less than a fighting force's rifle.

If you find yourself in a fire fight as a "troop" and are the shotgun man... you have riflemen covering the enemy with rifle fire.

A troop is also only able to carry so many shotgun rounds before weight is an issue...

An individual that "needs" that sort of round quantity and box style mag has the AWESOME KILLER Saiga at his disposal.

This is only my opinion and YMMV...

Brent

 

[hogdogs]

One more point... It takes far longer to remove the mag, reload it and reinsert it than a well practiced shotgunner can stuff shells up the tube and he doesn't have a mag he has to control and worry about dropping in the dirt...

brent

 

[publius]

Not enough demand. The vast majority of shotguns are, and always will be, for sporting purposes. Can't have a hi-cap mag for migratory birds and most people will not want a bulky detachable mag for big game or skeet. As far as self defence or military, an 8 round tube is pretty darn good. Acceptable capacity and easy to load. I would much rather carry around loose ammo than 6 or 7 huge mags. plus more ammo.

 

[lamarw]

Unfortunately, it has only been in the last twenty or so years folks have had to concearn themselves with armed gangs. This is only in parts of our suposedly civilized Nation.

Just remember the greater the firepower, the sooner the bad guys will have it for their use.

I would highly recommend getting out of the war zone and into a peaceful environment.

Practice accurate and effective use of your weapon vs. laying down a field of fire. More firepower weapons might just mean you get cut down quicker by the opposition.

Just a thought.

 

[C0untZer0]

I was wondering if that underslung M26 has any recoil buffer. From what I could read I don't think so and there doesn't seem to be any room between the chamber and the M16 mag well. I think you get the full recoil.

Well anyway - the M26 is kind of an innovation, but it sort of points out that probably a soldier with his battle rifle / assualt rifle is only occasionally going to need a shotgun, but a solider with a shotgun is going to frequently need a rifle.

 

[Skadoosh]

I don't particularly like the look of a box-mag fed shotgun. I guess I'm a traditionalist.

 

[hogdogs]

A protruding box mag style gun never totes on my back as comfy as any tube fed firearm be it my .22LR's or shotguns...

And for "improvised rest" shooting, it always seems to be right where I want to lay the rifle or place my forward hand... Call me a diva but I like a smooth bottom...
Brent

 

[kozak6]

Yeah, shotgun technology is in a rut.

Christopher Spencer invented the first successful pump action in 1882, and JMB invented the first semiautomatic shotgun in 1898.

Part of the resistance to box magazine fed shotguns is that tube magazines are better for sporting shotguns, and "good enough" for fighting shotguns.

For sporting shotguns, they are snag free, allow for easier handling and carrying, easily plugged, more easily allow for multiple shotshell lengths, are better for shooting sports, work better for rimmed cartridges, and allow one to carry the shotgun by the receiver. They've also been the status quo for almost 130 years.

It's also more difficult to design a box magazine for rimmed cartridges, and for a shotshell in particular. Rimlock is a problem, multiple cartridge lengths are a problem, and shells deforming in the magazine are a problem.

Most fighting shotguns are just variations on sporting shotguns, and it turns out that since shotguns aren't terribly popular for combat, tube mag fed shotguns are "good enough". After all, why isn't the AA-12 more popular?

 

[C0untZer0]

Probably improvements could come about in shotgun ammo, but what could improved shotgun ammo do that existing weapons systems can't do?

Between the SAW, M16A4, M203/ M320 grenade launcher and the XM25 IAWS, is there anything that super shotgun ammo could do that one of these weapon systems can't already do?

As far as HD goes, short of Zombiepocalypse, I personally think 8 rounds is going to be more than enough for any situation I might face.

But even if it isn't - look at the KSG - 14+1 rounds there...

 

[scar_47]

Because their primarily a sporting weapon and the current designs work great for that purpose as others have pointed out along with several issues in shotguns using magazines, the military doesn't have much combat use for them other weapons can easily fill its role or supplement it during a firefight their adequate and thats all they really need for a limited use weapon. Suppl and demand theres very little demand for a new design so theres very little supply.

 

[Technosavant]

Well, when major departures are tried, they tend to not sell and the folks who buy shotguns tend to complain long and loud that anybody thought to change things up.

Exhibit A: Remington 105 CTi. No argument that the initial versions had iffy reliability, but that was fixed, and then folks ran the other way from the gun. Result: it's no longer in production. Shotgun people tend to be set in their ways and not terribly interested in new designs.

As for box magazines, they aren't as useful as you seem to think. The S12's rock and lock method makes for rather difficult reloading with a full mag and closed chamber. It's no faster to reload than a tube mag with a speedloader, and you also pick up the feeding issues present when the round has a rimmed base and no curve to it at all; you might as well try to design a semiauto pistol that will run .38spl wadcutters. To top it all off, when you start getting into 10 round mags, they are LONG; they seriously reduce maneuverability of the shotgun. Detachable box mags on a shotgun are something that sounds awesome to folks who haven't really used them but are just not that big a deal to those who have (and yes, I do have a Saiga 12).

IMO, shotgun development is pretty well matured, and all you'll see now is variations on themes. New materials, minor changes to the operating system, etc. Much like rifles and handguns- this is mature technology, and there isn't that much room for tremendous forward leaps in design.

 

[TxGun]

look at the KSG - 14+1 rounds there...
-------------------------------------

Yep, interested to see how the KSG works out. Likely to be some bugs in the initial offering (isn't there always?), but if it proves to be reliable, then catches on and sells well....market forces will make imitation an imperative.

And yeah, I know the KSG design is based on another, older design. But timing (and good marketing) is everything.

 

[lmccrock]

Akdal Arms is importing a mag fed shotgun. Not many so far, a couple dealers have been talking. People who like cool toys and 3-gun competitors will snap them up.

 

[kozak6]

Box magazine fed.

If a shotgun has a tube magazine, it is magazine fed as well.

 

[redlevel42]

When they figured out how to mount two barrels, side by side, with two separate firing mechanisms, and the barrels indexed to the same point of aim at a predetermined yardage, they reached the apex, the epitome of shotgun technology.

Anything since then is just useless piddling.

Did I mention that I'm an old quail hunter?

 

[TheKlawMan]

It would seem to me that there is room for improvement in the technology of recoil. Both in reduction of felt recoil and possibly energy conservation, the latter being Buck Rogers sci fi, but sci fi has a habit of becoming reality.

 

[BigJimP]

drop out or drop in mags ....are going nowhere in my opinion ( but then I rely on old technology for my defense - a 5" 1911 in .45acp too ) ....and none of the poly frame, high cap mags make any difference to me ...in my selection of a defensive weapon.

I understand that a lot of guys depend on a shotgun for their primary defense (although we can debate in another thread whether that's a smart choice or not ) ....but in relying on a relatively standard pump gun or semi-auto shotgun ......nothing is broken, so no reason to look for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Benelli has produced a superior fighting shotgun - a gas operated M-4 / or any number of their Inertia operated semi-autos as well...and I don't know that we needed them either / but they are certainly good options to reduce recoil, etc.

The point about a mag tube on a shotgun being very easy to load is certainly true as well...whether its on a pump-gun or on a semi-auto like the M-4 ...so I don't see what a drop out mag does for anyone.