Shot Group Card
- Thread starter sfmedic
- Start date
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Upper left, should be "sight". 
IIRC, this "may" be more applicable for one hand shooting, at least the ones from years back were. I'd have to find one of the old charts and look at the differences.
IIRC, this "may" be more applicable for one hand shooting, at least the ones from years back were. I'd have to find one of the old charts and look at the differences.
Your right - I have a bad habite using site - dont know where i picked it up from.
Im going to have these printed for students and have the fundamentals on the other side. Its going to be in kurdish so front sight will translate to "Stare kopeshi" any ways
I actually pulled this out of an old manual i wrote (ST) It needed an update so thats what im doing - just wanted other instructors input
Im going to have these printed for students and have the fundamentals on the other side. Its going to be in kurdish so front sight will translate to "Stare kopeshi" any ways
I actually pulled this out of an old manual i wrote (ST) It needed an update so thats what im doing - just wanted other instructors input
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Hmmm... Yours looks updated, though I don't see any specific two handed references, it does mention thumb pushing and "grip". Probably not a bad place to start diagnosing a problem.
This one is definitely bullseye (one handed) oriented:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm
This one is definitely bullseye (one handed) oriented:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm
Not to go off thread here - but the point about one handed v. two handed shooting Ive kinda evolved or devolved on that exact same point.
I know a guy that does a lot of Youtube video stuff an old comp shooter - he brought up a point when he was talking about grip - his firing hand does the same thing as when he does offhand shooting and he refers to his non firing hand as merely an assist to the firing hand.
My jury is still out on that one but im inclining towards it. We diverge on several little things like firing hand grip strength and Im more of an Isosceles shooter and he's more inclined to the Weaver stance
(techniques are not fundmentals - if it works leave it alone)
I know a guy that does a lot of Youtube video stuff an old comp shooter - he brought up a point when he was talking about grip - his firing hand does the same thing as when he does offhand shooting and he refers to his non firing hand as merely an assist to the firing hand.
My jury is still out on that one but im inclining towards it. We diverge on several little things like firing hand grip strength and Im more of an Isosceles shooter and he's more inclined to the Weaver stance
(techniques are not fundmentals - if it works leave it alone)
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Interesting way to think about it. I do note that back when guys like me (old
) were starting to move from bullseye shooting to IPSC, we found that it was easy to speed up and get the hits needed. It was hard to try and get an IPSC (only) shooter to concentrate on the fundamentals. A sizable percentage of those folks had issues with targets beyond 12 yards or so.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22msLVCtPk8
this is the vid that metions that point
I like his philosophy and teaching style
this is the vid that metions that point
I like his philosophy and teaching style
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
I am aware of Hickock45, but don't think I'd use him for any instructions. From what I observed, he is far behind the curve on modern techniques.
The late, great Paul Gomez has a serious resume and made some outstanding videos before his sad demise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJOslIIfggk
The late, great Paul Gomez has a serious resume and made some outstanding videos before his sad demise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJOslIIfggk
Yea it was sad - he was pretty unhealthy but looked healthy - kinda makes you say hmmmm
Im a non firing thumb over firing thumb kinda guy myself I know there are ways that would do me well but i keep with what I do best in this case.
if It was 20 years ago i would probably rotate my non firing hand forward but not because of anything on that video but because it gives you a more neutral position and "evens out the arms"
i tride that for a couple months but it just didnt take it always felt forced and unnatural to me .
what would that alleviate on the above shot card?
Im a non firing thumb over firing thumb kinda guy myself
I know there are ways that would do me well but i keep with what I do best in this case.if It was 20 years ago i would probably rotate my non firing hand forward but not because of anything on that video but because it gives you a more neutral position and "evens out the arms"
i tride that for a couple months but it just didnt take it always felt forced and unnatural to me .
what would that alleviate on the above shot card?
Bob Wright
New member
Well, to state the obvious: If the shooter is getting good groups likely the sights just need adjusting.
Or am I missing something?
Bob Wright
Or am I missing something?
Bob Wright
Al remembers well...I'm another old guy and former Bullseye & PPC shooter. We found that speeding up was pretty easy when it was based on solid fundamentals. Our fast groups were not that much worse than regular strings, no matter what range.
I see everyone now shooting at 3, 5, 7 &10 yards and enjoy having them come over to ask me what I am doing with my target at 25. Most frequent comment is "How are you doing that?" They don't seem to understand that if you do your part, group sizes only double between 25 & 50 yards, no matter how fast you do it.
*Fundamentals*
I see everyone now shooting at 3, 5, 7 &10 yards and enjoy having them come over to ask me what I am doing with my target at 25. Most frequent comment is "How are you doing that?" They don't seem to understand that if you do your part, group sizes only double between 25 & 50 yards, no matter how fast you do it.
*Fundamentals*
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
I don't know.
I plan to print the card and take it along on my next range session. Then we'll see.
Bob Wright
New member
awg23:
If the student can shoot good groups low left and still be flinching, let him flinch and adjust the sights!
Bob Wright
If the student can shoot good groups low left and still be flinching, let him flinch and adjust the sights!
Bob Wright
Or.... correct the problem.
are you going to adjust sights on every gun he buys from then on ? Thats one of the reasons its important that the instructors know how to shoot. All it would take is one or two rounds fired by someone who can shoot to either confirm or disprove if its the gun.
If everyone fires the gun and it doing tight shot groups in the same spot then adjust the sights (if you can or if you can without screwing up the gun)
But if its not the Gun (usually the case) then the shooter needs to be corrected (thats what any good instructors are supposed to be able to do after all)- never adjust a gun to solve a problem caused by the shooter
in this case I think a little ball and dummy drill would be helpful.
never adjust an accurate gun - never offset aiming points (ky windage)
are you going to adjust sights on every gun he buys from then on ? Thats one of the reasons its important that the instructors know how to shoot. All it would take is one or two rounds fired by someone who can shoot to either confirm or disprove if its the gun.
If everyone fires the gun and it doing tight shot groups in the same spot then adjust the sights (if you can or if you can without screwing up the gun)
But if its not the Gun (usually the case) then the shooter needs to be corrected (thats what any good instructors are supposed to be able to do after all)- never adjust a gun to solve a problem caused by the shooter
in this case I think a little ball and dummy drill would be helpful.
never adjust an accurate gun - never offset aiming points (ky windage)
Bob Wright
New member
sfmedic says:
Not everyone sees the sights in the same way. My friend, the late Cecil Vick, had a S&W .357 Magnum, pre-Model 27, with 8 3/8" barrel. When he had the gun sighted in for him, I could never get close to the target. Same for him and my Super Blackhawk. We shot nearly a foot apart at twenty-five yards.
Likewise, my son-in-law could never hit with my Super Blackhawk, nor could I with his. Yet all three of us were very good shots with our own guns sighted in for our eyes.
Further, after I had cataract surgery several years ago, I had to re-sight all of my own guns.
And:
Well, certainly. I adjust the sights on every one of my guns as required to hit to roughly three inches high at twenty five yards. Most of my Rugers I sight in at twenty five yards with my pet load. I then place the rear sight about mid-height then file the front sight down to match. This allows me enough elevation to adjust when changing to a different load.
And, further:
No matter how accurate a gun is, if I can't hit with it, I'm going to adjust the sights!
Bob Wright
Not everyone sees the sights in the same way. My friend, the late Cecil Vick, had a S&W .357 Magnum, pre-Model 27, with 8 3/8" barrel. When he had the gun sighted in for him, I could never get close to the target. Same for him and my Super Blackhawk. We shot nearly a foot apart at twenty-five yards.
Likewise, my son-in-law could never hit with my Super Blackhawk, nor could I with his. Yet all three of us were very good shots with our own guns sighted in for our eyes.
Further, after I had cataract surgery several years ago, I had to re-sight all of my own guns.
And:
Well, certainly. I adjust the sights on every one of my guns as required to hit to roughly three inches high at twenty five yards. Most of my Rugers I sight in at twenty five yards with my pet load. I then place the rear sight about mid-height then file the front sight down to match. This allows me enough elevation to adjust when changing to a different load.
And, further:
No matter how accurate a gun is, if I can't hit with it, I'm going to adjust the sights!
Bob Wright
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if you were shoot low and the gun had no adjustment for elevation what do you do?
If you were to sell it - do you adjust it back?
im at a loss how anyone could see a sight differently - they still line up the sights the same way what would be different on a different shooter - front sight rear sight or your eye? The target is in the same place right?
if your not hitting where your aiming at consistently then your doing something wrong consistently.
if you bench your handgun and the top of the sights are level and equal daylight between the sights and you point of aim centered on the top of the front site post it will hit where your aiming.
so what are you doing to consistently miss?
as far as cataract surgery - as long as you have a clear focus on you front site i dont see why that would change anything
If you were to sell it - do you adjust it back?
im at a loss how anyone could see a sight differently - they still line up the sights the same way what would be different on a different shooter - front sight rear sight or your eye? The target is in the same place right?
if your not hitting where your aiming at consistently then your doing something wrong consistently.
if you bench your handgun and the top of the sights are level and equal daylight between the sights and you point of aim centered on the top of the front site post it will hit where your aiming.
so what are you doing to consistently miss?
as far as cataract surgery - as long as you have a clear focus on you front site i dont see why that would change anything
Bob Wright
New member
File down the front sight.
No.
I don't know the answer to that, but I do know it was so. When I was in the Army, each M1 was sighted in to each individual's eyesight. As to why, I don't know. And, yes, the target was in the same place.
I never bench my revolvers to sight in as there is a big difference in the point of impact when benchresting and my two-hand hold. Further, bullet weight plays an important part in actual point of impact.
I fail to understand that question.
All I know is that it did.
Bob Wright
I think different people hitting the target at different places with the same sights has to do with geometry. No two people are going to hold a gun (or their eyes/body) exactly the same, and tiny differences in the angle between your eye and the sights are going to work out to much more substantial differences down range. The length or your arms, the length of your neck, etc are all going to create minute differences in sight picture.
As far as things changing after cataract surgery, that's not super surprising as the surgery probably slightly changed the optic "sweet spot" on the surface of your eye. You probably - without noticing - have your eye held a little differnt than you did before.
As far as things changing after cataract surgery, that's not super surprising as the surgery probably slightly changed the optic "sweet spot" on the surface of your eye. You probably - without noticing - have your eye held a little differnt than you did before.
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