Short rifle vs. carbine

[Jeff H]

What are the technical differences between the two terms? I was always under the impression that a carbine was a short rifle, but I guess that isn't the case because I've seen plenty of people say that this gun or that gun is a short rifle not a carbine...

 

[jmr40]

With leverguns if it has barrel bands it is a carbine regardless of barrel length. No barrel bands and it is a rifle. A Marlin 336 with barrel bands and a 20" barrel is a carbine. An 1895 with a 22" barrel is a rifle. The guide gun with 18.5" barrel is a short rifle since it has no barrel bands.

 

[tINY]

Sometimes, people mean <16" barrel and requires a federal tax stamp when they say "short rifle".



-tINY

 

[aarondhgraham]

I don't think there is a definitive answer,,,

At least I've never gotten a consensus,,,
Either from dictionaries or knowledgeable people.

Some manufacturers have rifle and carbine versions of a firearm,,,
They always say the shorter version is a carbine,,,
But the characteristics will not be the same.

I have had people (and a Remington rep) say,,,
A carbine is a rifle that is using ammo originally designed for a pistol.

A quick use of on-line dictionaries and the one on my desk,,,
They all say something on the order of this:
A short rifle used by cavalrymen.

I do not think there is a definitive answer to this question,,,
But I'm open to reading anyones opinion.

 

[DMK]

I have had people (and a Remington rep) say,,,
A carbine is a rifle that is using ammo originally designed for a pistol.

Well that definitely isn't true. An M4 carbine for example, does not shoot a round designed for a pistol. The M4 of course is a shorter, handier version of the full size M16A2 and M16A4 rifles.

There is no definite definition, but I would say that it would be a short or shortened rifle. This is very subjective

A Kar98 for example is a fairly long rifle by today's standards. However, it was considered a "Karbiner" by the Germans, being a shorter, handier version of the Gew98 rifle of WWI. Same thing for the Swiss K-31 vs their longer 1911 rifle. Both of these Carbines shot full size "battle rifle" rounds (as did the Russian M38 and M44 carbines).

The US M1 Carbine was/is by all accounts a short handy rifle, but there was no full size version of this rifle so the definition can't be "shorter version of a full size rifle".

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello DMK,,,

but there was no full size version of this rifle so the definition can't be "shorter version of a full size rifle

That is my point exactly,,,
Also, the .30 carbine round wasn't originally a pistol round,,,
I believe it's a ~generic~ term that anyone may use as they see fit.

The Dictionary on my Mac sez:

carbine |ˈkärˌbīn; -ˌbēn|
noun
a light automatic rifle.
• historical a short rifle or musket used by cavalry.
ORIGIN early 17th cent.: from French carabine, from carabin ‘mounted musketeer,’ of unknown origin.

Dictionary dot com sez:

car⋅bine  [kahr-been, -bahyn] –noun
1. a light, gas-operated semiautomatic rifle.
2. (formerly) a short rifle used in the cavalry

It simply is not a definitively defined term,,,
Not something defined in the list of words used in the Fair Advertising Act.

~~definitively defined~~
I can't believe I just used that in a sentence,,,
My 6th grade teacher Mrs Sandgreen would whack my knuckles for that.

I wish I had a firearm specific dictionary to look it up in,,,
But if I found three different firearm dictionaries,,,
I'll bet I would find three different definitions.

 

[aarondhgraham]

This is an interesting link,,,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine

It still does not give a definitive definition,,,
But was an interesting article to read none the less.

 

[DMK]

The Dictionary on my Mac sez:

carbine |ˈkärˌbīn; -ˌbēn|
noun
a light automatic rifle.
• historical a short rifle or musket used by cavalry.
ORIGIN early 17th cent.: from French carabine, from carabin ‘mounted musketeer,’ of unknown origin.

Dictionary dot com sez:

car⋅bine  [kahr-been, -bahyn] –noun
1. a light, gas-operated semiautomatic rifle.
2. (formerly) a short rifle used in the cavalry

That's interesting. They must be referring to the US M1 Carbine specifically in the first definition at both places, because carbines are not universally semi-automatic (and it is my understanding that many folks used to call the M1 Carbine just "the Carbine"). Apple's reference to "automatic" would make a lot more sense if they actually mean "semi-automatic" like Colts "Automatic" in 45ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol).

Funny how you actually have to know something about guns to read and understand gun related definitions.

I wish I had a firearm specific dictionary to look it up in,,,
But if I found three different firearm dictionaries,,,
I'll bet I would find three different definitions.

I think you would also.

 

[Old Grump]

My working definition is under 38" long over all, barrel 20" or less, intermediate range, light weight, shoulder fired weapon. Might not find that in the dictionary but it works for me and any gun meeting that criteria is pretty much acknowledged as a carbine by most if not all. A 40" gun with a 22" barrel could be a carbine, I won't quibble over 2".

 

[DMK]

This is an interesting link,,,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine

It still does not give a definitive definition,,,
But was an interesting article to read none the less.

In my opinion, this is an accurate description, if slightly complicated.

A carbine (pronounced /ˈkɑrbaɪn/ or /ˈkɑrbiːn/[1]) is a firearm similar to a rifle or musket. Many carbines, especially modern designs, were developed from rifles, being essentially shortened versions of full rifles firing the same ammunition, although often at a lower velocity. There have also been many cases where the carbine and rifle adopted by a particular nation were not technically related, such as using completely different ammunition or internal operating systems (though the carbine still being weaker, or of smaller size). Either may be more common, depending on the time period. There are also a limited number of pistol-caliber carbines, designed by integrating the action of a handgun such as a revolver or autoloader into a longer weapon with a rifle barrel and stock. They are generally employed as a more accurate alternative to a traditional handgun, and are used by some police teams and by civilian sport shooters.

In the 1800s, infantry would have a longer, more powerful firearm, and cavalry a shorter, lighter firearm.

The shorter length and lighter weight of carbines makes them easier to handle in close-quarter combat situations (such as urban or jungle warfare), or when deploying from vehicles. Carbines have higher penetration capabilities than submachine guns while retaining standardized ammunition, unlike most current personal defense weapons, which use proprietary cartridges. The disadvantages of carbines, when compared with their longer counterparts, are generally poorer long-range accuracy and shorter effective range, while also generally being larger than submachine guns and thus harder to maneuver in close quarters.
Contents

 

[Jeff H]

Hi all, thanks for your input. It seems that post #2 had the info I was looking for because for some odd reason it seems that some people get really upset when you call their short barreled Levergun a carbine. I've never heard of any real difference between a short rifle and a carbine until I started doing a bunch of research on a 1892 levergun.

Who would have thought the difference was barrel bands.

 

[fisherman66]

I use a yard stick for my own definition.

 

[gak]

When it comes to Win 92s (and similar 94s), it's not only the barrel bands but in combo--in their case--with round barrel versus octagonal--i.e., a shorter than standard rifle with a round barrel. Again. I'm talking in these Winchester instances--not trying to extrapolate more broadly. The smaller '92 caliber (.25-20 and .32-20) 20" "carbines" only had one barrel band (back on the wood fore-stock), secured in front with a rifle-type hanger. So, in terms of barrel construction on the 20" and under guns, carbine also simultaneously was characterized by lighter weight, versus just being a shorter version of the manufacturer's full length (24-26") octagonal rifle. Winchester 92 and 94 trappers were also called "baby carbines," though the current Chiappa 1892 "trapper" (uniquely) is a shorter-yet short-rifle of octagonal configuration. Most original Win 92/94 trappers or "baby carbines" were round barreled.

Later edit: the term "carbine" is also a relative term--that is, relative to the gun/rifle it's based on. The 1886 SRC (saddle ring carbine) is a 22", round barreled, barrel-banded variant of the longer, heavier rifle. No one would argue that it's not a carbine, relative to itself, though it's a much larger, heavier gun than its 1873, 1892, 1894 "carbine" brethren (and maybe even those guns' 24"/26" rifles?)...and most absolutely dwarfs the M1 and M4 carbines.

 

[FALPhil]

And to add a little more confusion:

Most Jap milsurp collectors know that among the variants of the Type 38 battle rifle, there is a short rifle and a carbine which are distinctly different.

 

[Big Bill]

I always thought a carbine was a shorter version of a long rifle. For example, the M1 Carbine.

 

[FALPhil]

gg

 

[alloy]

I thought the word carbine was used to release manufacturers from expectations of rifle accuracy.

 

[gak]

"I always thought a carbine was a shorter version of a long rifle. For example, the M1 Carbine."

----
The M1's a good example of a gun designed from the outset as a discreet "carbine" to begin with, with no rifle predecessor/parent. In essence, a short, handy and light (and light recoil) weapon--in this instance with smaller/lighter cartridge and rapid semi auto (and later select fire) operation--with specific duties or mission(s) in mind to take advantage of those characteristics. The now discontinued Ruger PC (Police Carbine) 9mm and .40 S&W series is another example: carbines right from scratch.

 

[BlueTrain]

Once upon a time the infantry used rifles and muskets that had barrels in the 30-inch and longer range. There were even some lever action rifles that were styles "muskets." The cavalry carried carbines and some soldiers theoretically armed with carbines were styled "carabiniers." But not all mounted soldiers were technically cavalry and some actually carried long rifles.

Some of the early rifles used by the army were relatively short but were not generally referred to as short rifles, as far as I know. I'm thinking here of the so-called Mississippi rifle.

Then towards the end of the 19th century when the infantry began to have much better weapons than they used to have, the cavalry came off second best in engagements, especially in the Boer War. Some cavalry were issued regular rifles and soon the so-called short rifle came into existance as an arm suitable for both infantry and cavalry. In the British case, it was officially termed the "short magazine Lee-Enfield." The older ones are now called "long Lee-Enfields. They had only just decided that maybe "charger loading" (using clips) was a good idea, too. The US switched over when the 1903 Springfield was adopted.

The Germans used a short rifle version of the K98 for engineers and like troops, while their cavalry used proper carbines and the infantry proper rifles. The Germans finally adopted the shorter version for all uses sometime in the early 1930s. The older long barrelled Mausers didn't go away and I recall seeing a photo of one in use in the Yugoslavian Civil War a few years back.

Most countries eventually switched over to a short bolt action, others never did before switching to semi-automatic rifles.

 

[GeauxTide]

My .02

I consider it a carbine if the capacity is 5 or more shots, or a removable mag; i.e., CZ 527 and Marlin 1894 a carbine. I consider my Ruger SS Compact a rifle even with a 16.5" barrel.