Shooting that New No. 1....HELP

[Bongo Boy]

Second time out with the Ruger No 1 .45-70 and if anything, the situation is worse than the first time. I mean, it's really bad.

Tonight I stuck with the 325 gr cast bullets because they did the best the first time out--by quite a bit compared to the 410 gr guys. This evening it was 49 gr 4198 for 20 rds, and 51 gr 4198 for the second box. All shooting was from a Caldwell lead sled type of rest, which was not adjustable for length. The gun rested mid-way down the forearm, which was all I could do. The forearm mounting rail thingie I have shimmed between the rail and barrel using two pieces of thick cardstock under moderate tension--enough to keep them from shifting.

How bad? Well, the first target was all over the board and after 10 rds I realized the scope was flopping all around as the screws holding the rings to the rib had backed off. Hopeful at that point, I tightened them down as best I could with the little screwdriver and fired the rest of the box. At best I ended up with a 6" 'group' at 50 yds. This was with the 51 gr loads.

Next, with added resolve, patience and concentration on pressing that trigger, I got 4 shots touching one another, and in fact doing maybe a bit better than just touching--possibly a 1" hole or less. The 5th shot, still a surprise discharge, at least 5" to the right. Now, I ask myself--with the lead sled and the shoulder pad, you're not feeling anything but a wonderful slow push--are you still flinching? Well, honestly, I don't know for sure--I don't think so, but there's never a question with handgun, I know if my eyes were closed or not.

So, I'm basically shooting a 6" wad of garbage at 50 yds from a bench rest. Where should I start to know where the problem is--logic tells me it's the shooter--it always is with handgun. My senses tell me it isn't, but I know that feeling of denial. I could have anticipated many of these shots--I just don't think so.

I was thinking a few things--a different shooter (that's tough), factory ammo (that's expensive), and going to much lighter loads with factory jacketed bullets. Not all at the same time, of course.

I would consider this damn fine shooting for me...if I was shooting offhand with a revolver. I see that bullet hit at 3 o'clock and I'm dumbfounded--the general 'group' of all rounds fired has a centroid at about 3" left of the bull at 9 o'clock.

Methodical, step-by-step troubleshooting recommendations, or should I just 'buy a shotgun' and accept the fact I have no clue how to shoot a rifle? I used to be pretty good at trap, and it's rather binary--you hit it, or you don't. As I remember it, you don't get extra points when you 'smoke em'.

 

[44 AMP]

Bongo, I don't know your bullet, and can't find data in my personal library for that particular weight, but those seem like pretty stout loads.

I don't have a No.1 in .45-70, but I do have a No.3 in .45-70, and it is considerably lighter than the No.1.

And mine will put 3 bullets in one hole (using a 2.5x post/crosswire) scope, from a bench. (when I am up to it )

This is a 400gr cast slug and the old Lyman "factory duplication load" of 38.5gr IMR 3031.

Here are some suggestion...

Is your scope up to the task? The mount? (you already mentioned having it loose, once..).. Consider using the open sights instead....

Get A box of regular factory 405gr ammo. Rem/Win etc, to use as a reference.

Consider a load where you DON'T need to use the lead sled. A lighter load, and firing with the gun in your own hands. I gather you aren't a regular big bore rifle shooter, so the most important factor to start with is practice!

PRACTICE with a load that you can manage. Learn the rifle. Keep the velocity down (for now), learn what bullets the rifle likes and hates.

AND, recognize that what you have is not a benchrest rifle, its not a varmint rifle, and its NOT a repeater. I am confidant that the rifle will give you better than "minute of buffalo" groups, fed good ammo and shot well.

Group size is nice to know, gives bragging rights (when small), but shooting groups is NOT the point of a Ruger No.1 or No.3!

One shot from a cold barrel, going precisely where you want it to, and the ability to repeat this the next time, and every time, is the point to the single shot rifle.

I've got a No.1 in .375H&H, it is damn heavy. I've handled No.1s in .45-70, they aren't lightweights, either. Generally they shoot well, even when warmed up (and if you can shoot one fast enough to actually get it hot, then my hat is off to you!). But the point is where that first shot goes is what matters most.

Right now, it sounds like what would help you most is practice shooting the rifle, with loads that won't beat you up.

The .45-70 runs bullets from 300 to 500gr, so its not like your choices are limited. One bullet weight will most likely turn out to shoot a little better in your rifle, than the others. One BRAND might turn out to be great, and another crappy, you have to learn what your rifle likes best, bullet and load.

Welcome to the joy of big bore rifles! And the pain of the learning curve.
especially if you don't mount the rifle right!

 

[steveno]

my Ruger #1S in 45-70 would NOT shoot plain base cast bullets worth a crap. gas check lead bullets were another story as they would shoot just as good as jacketed bullets. Lyman # 457483 with a gas check which is about 385 grains depending upon the alloy shot really well. this rifle also didn't like 3031 but the most accurate loads were using 2400

 

[Bongo Boy]

The Bullets

The 325 gr looks like this loaded:



and the 400 gr have a substantial meplat:



Here they are right off the sizer...both gas checked, lubed and ready to be sprayed downrange like water from a garden hose:



I think what I'm hearing between the lines is that it's probably me and my inexperience, lighten the loads and try to find a sweet spot. I'll take that advice--beginning with some 'known' quantity such as one of the "we got our best accuracy with..." loads from the Hornady manual using the same components. I thought mine were rather moderate loads, but they're definitely toward the mid- to upper-end of the Ruger No 1 loads, as opposed to say the midpoint the lever gun loads. So hopefully I can save some powder and get better shooting done at the same time.

I think there's a huge "it's a lot harder than it looks" factor going on here. Duh. I may have to learn to breathe, press the trigger and all that stuff.

 

[eastbank]

i had two rifles in the last year that just would not shoot worth a damn, 3-5" groups at 50yds and down the road they went at a loss. hell i have a cheap H&R shotgun that will throw foster slugs that good. eastbank.

 

[mehavey]

At 325gr/4198/49-50gr you are loaded way too hot (40,000psi+)for cast bullets -- of whatever rational hardness.

Question: What/whose bullet are you loading? Absent any data, I'm going assume Lyman#2/BN~15.

Suggestion-1: Drop it to 40-41gr/4198 max (21ksi) and let us know
Suggestion-2: I don't see a crimp on the loaded rounds. Put at least a half-turn roll crimp (separate from seating) on the case.

 

[stubbicatt]

A "trapdoor" load of AA5744 worked well for me in a vintage High Wall, perhaps it will work for you too.

Step 1: Verify your scope was mounted solidly. My initial guess is that you will find your issue there.

Step 2: As another contributor suggested, shoot the rifle in your hands. A shooting buddy has a lead sled, and was attempting to get good groups with an otherwise accurate 308, which he was unable to do with that contraption. He did better off a bipod, prone.

Step 3: Match bullet to bore diameter. Cast bullets are pretty sensitive to sizing, and typically shoot best in my experience at .001 to 002" larger than groove diameter. Try a different lube. Emeritts has always worked well for me. Simply melt the lube out of your bullets in an oven on paper towels on a cookie sheet at relatively low temperature and pan lube them with a softer, better, lube.

Step 4: Try a milder load. I have had the best luck with ~500 grain cast bullets and AA5744 at trapdoor pressures. 45-70 is surely no maiden's caress, no matter what you do, but it needn't be punishing. A smaller dose of an appropriate powder makes it much easier to shoot well.

If the issue as you troubleshoot it is not the scope being loose, my best guess is that the bullets are not properly sized to your bore.

Hope this helps.

 

[44 AMP]

Suggestion-2: I don't see a crimp on the loaded rounds. Put at least a half-turn roll crimp (separate from seating) on the case.

Other than as a cure for not sizing the flare back down to spec, why bother with a crimp for a single shot rifle???

Done right, a crimp does no harm that I ever found, but done wrong its worse than no crimp.

I have things set to just "kiss" the case mouth at final seating, which is plenty since I got rid of my Siamese Mauser and Marlin 95. I shoot a Ruger No.3 and a T/C Contender, and no crimp is needed for them.

 

[mehavey]

IF the bullet is very specifically lands-jammed, no crimp needed.
But if not, I have found the cast 45-70 (even with heavy bullets/-
very fast powder like 5744) really notices that lack of ignition
resistance.

Done in a separate step, it's hard to screw up a cast bullet crimp
even when crimping into the bullet itself i.e., w/o a crimp groove




I do not crimp the 45-90 and 45-3¼ using heavy cast/black powder in two sharps and a rolling block where I seat at the lands.
I do crimp smokeless in the 45-70/lighter bullets not against the lands.

 

[SaxonPig]

Quick and dirty test...drop a bullet down the barrel from the chamber end. If it falls through the bore is too big for the bullet. Need to slug the barrel at that point and figure what bullet is needed. If you have already done this then ignore what I just said.

If the bullet lodges, then it is likely at least close. Again, ignore if you already slugged it.

Are you sizing .457? I know this is called for with the 45/70 but I always use 458 with good results. I always think lead bullets should be slightly bigger.

Your load is safe but near the top. Just for fun back off 10% and see what happens. Lead bullets sometimes work best at less than max powder charges.

 

[Bongo Boy]

The bullets are Accurate Molds 46-325S and 46-420G. Both are sized to .459 -- at least that's the die size, I haven't actually mike'd them to see how they ended up. I know I have a couple of RCBS dies that I feel are 0.001" smaller than advertised. I was going to buy a .460 die but none was available when I placed my order for Stuff. I could try simply not sizing them at all, but then I'd be faced with how to lube them--all my lube requires heat and I can see this would be a real mess done by hand.

Now, I'd say all 40 rds that I fired needed a gentle push with the thumb to get them home--maybe 10 1000ths or so. This comes as a real surprise to be given that ogive appears to me to come right back to the case mouth. It seems more likely to me the case mouth still has a bit of a bell on it from the expander, and a lot less likely the bullet is engaging. I didn't think to pull one out of the chamber to see.

I did not trim any of the cases--they're loaded straight out of the box from Starline (after sizing, of course). I do believe the case mouth has a very slight burr, even after loading. It's something I can feel with the fingernail, and could also be why the cartridges needed a little help. In the future, I intend to do the most minimal case trim I can just to clean up the case mouth, and then deburr a bit either by hand or carefully with a chamfering tool. Seems like bad practice to be shoving the cartridge home if it's actually getting tight on the case mouth and not the bullet touching the lands. I understand the No 1 has an extremely short leade, but these cases really should be tidied up a bit.

As for the crimp, I think I do have a roll crimp die, but I didn't see any reason to use it. The Speer manual simply said 'no need to crimp these for single-shot rifles' so that was all the excuse I needed. I suppose it's possible inconsistent ignition is an issue, but I'd think that would be less of an issue with a full case--I dunno. It's something I'm will to try, of course, I'd just prefer not to.

I'm certainly willing to try almost anything, but this is going to take some time unless I start futzing with multiple factors at a time--which I think will get me nowhere fast.

I think I'm most comfortable with a) lighter loads, and b) jacketed bullets. I remember now that my first box of factory ammo was Federal, but I can't recall the bullet. Anyway, we know it would have been trapdoor loads--and that performance stunk also (3" group at 50 yds). However, the big difference there was that was a 3" group...maybe 4", but 20 rds made a definite 'group like' pattern. That's NOT what I have now--it's sporadic as hell.

So, I back up a step.

Oh, the LeadSled was rickety as can be, by the way--the front end wobbled all over the place, although it seemed quite steady when I was shooting. Still, could have been a factor. It was what was at the club...not mine.

 

[mehavey]

The Speer manual simply said 'no need to crimp these for single-shot rifles...

If you are jammed to the lands, no crimp needed. If not, I recommend crimp (no matter Speer's counsel).

I'm certainly willing to try almost anything, but this is going to take some time unless I start futzing with multiple factors at a time.

Drop the powder to IMR4198/40gr. That's first (and I'd predict most important) step.

In the end, Tom at Accurate Molds makes superb molds.
If you decide you don't want to pursue this cast game,
PM me and I'll take them off your hands for what you ask.

 

[Wyosmith]

I can see a problem from your post with the pictures.

Look carefully at the bullets. See how the sized part of the bullet is off-center?

When making cast bullets you should always size them nose first and then crimp on the gas check so the ogive and the body of the bullet are perpendicular to each other. Do it in 2 stages, not one.
If not concentric the rifling will cock the bullet a bit to one side as it leaves the case and starts its trip down the bore.

If you have many bullets sized concentric and a few that are not you will get flyers in the group and that is the reason. There can be other reasons too, but that one is easy to see.

 

[Bongo Boy]

See how the sized part of the bullet is off-center?

Yes, and that has driven me nuts from day one. I've tried to center up the bullet in the die before running down the ram, and sometimes a good product, sometimes not. The more a given bullet is actually sized down, the greater the impact, too.

I'll flip 'em over and give that a try.

 

[Wyosmith]

Use a totally flat punch on your luber/sizer to push the bullets into the sizing die nose first.
Or another way is to use one of the Lee sizer sets that fit in a normal press.

The objective is to have the first driving band of the bullet be 100% perpendicular to the direction of travel so the rifling is engaged evenly.

If you need a punch for an RCBS, Lyman or Star luber/sizer and if you can’t find one PM me and I’ll help you.

 

[bbqncigars]

None of my 45-70 guns have any perceptible leade (seems to be SAAMI spec). All the loads for my single shots have the brass taper crimped only enough to remove the belling needed to seat the boolits. Best accuracy has been medium or lighter loads in all guns including the Marlin. Gas checks didn't offer any better accuracy, and no leading w/o them.

 

[Nathan]

I have a Ruger #1. Here is my experience. I used the Ruger rings with a Vortex scope. I don't trust the rings, so I lapped them. Glad I did! It was needed. After lapping, you can feel the grip on the scope improve. I used a torque wrench for all.

Then, I have 2 loads for it. My hot 300gr JHP hunting loads group 1.4" at 100, but recoil is like hell! I'm getting a lead sled for load development. It is going like 2100 fps.

My 405GR cast load is about 2.5" at 100 from memory. It is going like 1700 fps and leads like heck. I might try again around 1500 fps.

Both loads are RE7.


I would suggest a reasonable 325 gr cast load might require black powder or trail boss to work...

 

[mehavey]

For Trapdoor loads, go with AA5744 and soft lube (50-50 Beeswax/ALOX)
and soft bullet (30:1) bullet... and still kill anything on this continent.

 

[44 AMP]

My hot 300gr JHP hunting loads group 1.4" at 100, but recoil is like hell! I'm getting a lead sled for load development. It is going like 2100 fps

Of course, opinions differ, but while you are getting there, you aren't quite in the "recoil like hell class", yet.

I've got a load for the Hornady 350gr jacketed RN that does 2200fps from a Ruger No.3. THAT is RECOIL!

Also have a load for my .458Win Mag (not top end in the books) that launches a 400gr slug at 2100fps and my rifle is only about 8lbs. THAT, in my book, is recoil like hell!

 

[eastbank]

i shot a deer yesterday with my siamese mauser in 45-70 with open sights at about 75 yrds with a 350 jacketed bullet at 1800fps, big in bigger out and way to much for a common whitetail. a double lung shot, no wasted meat. eastbank.