Shooting Problems with my first 1911

Just got back from the range with my first 1911, SA 1911 Loaded.

I'm pretty down right now.
I've never shot a 1911 and I need some advice.

First off, I was getting FTE's on almost every clip. I was using the stock SA clips, then I got out the lanes and bought 2 wilson mags. Similar results, almost every clip I had a FTE usually on the 2nd last shell.

I didn't feel like I was limp wristing it, but apparently I may have been. I don't feel like the nose was coming up all that much. I started squeezing tight which meant the nose was vibrating a little while aiming and my shooting got worse.

BTW, I was using the range re-loads (230g), do you think that was part of the problem?

Give me some advice guys.
Also, when aiming at a group I typically go low left of the group, if that means anything. I'm a right hander. It's not the gun either because I kneeled down at the bench and shot a few and it went where it was supposed too.
 

3-fitty-7

New member
i had the same problem with my colt 1911, i am used to my ruger flattop .357 and am not recoil sensitive at all. i was embarassed at the range with my buddy and his new beretta that "never jams" and mine was getting fte's on every mag. so i took it back when i was by myself and still had some trouble. i asked the guy at the range for some help and after admiring my pistol for a few minutes he put a full mag in the center of the x. so it had to be me so i asked him for some advice and he said my grip was wrong, i am used to my sa rolling in my hands so i was limp wristing it without even realizing it. so he showed me a better grip and i just went today and went through a box without any problems at all. i just try to wrap my left hand fingers into my right hand knuckles and push w/ my right hand and pull with my left, i don't know if you do this already or not but just practice and have fun with it, for me, the 1911 is a beast i have yet to master but i'm trying every chance i get.
good luck.
 

LHB1

New member
"Also, when aiming at a group I typically go low left of the group, if that means anything. I'm a right hander. It's not the gun either because I kneeled down at the bench and shot a few and it went where it was supposed too."

That is a good description of the classic trigger control phenomenon known as "jerking the trigger". You are grabbing/jerking the trigger when the sights look right and pulling the barrel/sights low and left before the bullet can exit the barrel. Practice dry firing so that you can fire the 1911 pistol without disturbing the sight alignment. Then use the same technique when firing ammo.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB
 

Troy26

New member
proper 1911 grip.

Nothing personal to anyone who does, but I have to ask...amd I the only one that finds it rediculous to buy a gun you have to use a special grip just to shoot?
 

DGindlesperger

New member
never thought of a "proper 1911 grip" and I shoot anything I can get my hands on. I will say that part of learning to shoot is learning the correct way to hold any firearm. I even go as far as changing finger placement on the trigger dependent in the weight of the trigger. That being said I love my 1911's and never get FTE's, but I have had friends fire me guns and get them...I take it back and no problems. I think you need to look at the way you hold any auto and make sure it is a clean solid grip.
 

IanS

New member
Nothing personal to anyone who does, but I have to ask...amd I the only one that finds it rediculous to buy a gun you have to use a special grip just to shoot?

There's nothing unique or "special" about gripping a 1911. Its just like any correct grip on a handgun. The only difference between my grip when I grip a 1911 vs. say a Glock or SIG is my thumb is resting or riding on the thumb safety. While other people don't have their thumb on the safety.

First off, I was getting FTE's on almost every clip. I was using the stock SA clips, then I got out the lanes and bought 2 wilson mags. Similar results, almost every clip I had a FTE usually on the 2nd last shell.

BTW, I was using the range re-loads (230g), do you think that was part of the problem?

So the empty brass was stuck in the chamber? If it is, your extractor probabably needs better tension. Make sure it isn't damaged or chipped in the first place. In moderate priced 1911's (under $1000) the extractor is often overlooked although it is a critical part. Springfield has great CS though. They'll make it right. Give them a call.

Although you might not be doing it make sure to lock your wrist. Like the poster above many revolver shooters allow their wrist to break. You shouldn't need to grip it so tight the gun shakes. A firm hold on the gun is all you need otherwise it isn't your grip.

In a brand new gun try to use factory ammunition. New guns tend to be tight so its a good idea to use stouter loads (@500-1000) to loosen it up a bit. Once its broken in you'll have better luck with reloads and other softball loads they sell at the range. And try 7 round Wilson mags or 8 round CMC Powermags.
 

Rogueone

New member
Hi ya AUN.

I suspect it is your hold that is causing the problem. Definitely watch the Todd Jarrett Video clip Axion provided.

I attended a course at USSA in Tulsa with Phil Strader and Mike Seeklander. Phil is an up and coming IPSC/IDPA shooter, and wins often. He tends to shoot more Iron Sight than Open class, since he's shooting more so he is better for real world situations. He mentioned he competes to get faster and better with heightened adrenaline, not so much because he wants to win the contest, though he does enjoy that :) Mike was the Air Marshall's head trainer before he joined USSA. They both teach the hold you'll see Jarrett describing.

I'll describe it as I understand it, after attending their course and having a couple months to work with it since :) As TJ mentions, make sure the sights align with your arm bone. The gun will feel odd at first, as it will sit more to the right than you are used to if you grab it with what most people would consider a comfortable grip. Make sure to get the webbing of your thumb as high under the beavertail as you can for better recoil control. If positioned correctly, and the gun isn't too big for your hand, when you place your finger on the trigger, you probably won't be able to get the first knuckle onto the trigger. Those with larger/longer hands, may still be able to, which is why TJ mentioned bending the trigger finger so only the meaty portion of the finger tip is on the trigger.

Most important though, is your offhand. Your offhand is doing around 70% of the work holding the gun steady, NOT your shooting hand. Your right thumb should be doing nothing other than resting on the safety lever, you shouldn't have a lot of pressure applied to the gun by the thumb or fingers of the right hand. Also, you want to be able to "pull the trigger" with just your index finger, and with NO movement by any other part of your right/shooting hand. If you can not do this now, you will need to practice. Phil suggested to me getting an empty water bottle (say 16 oz size) where you can wrap your shooting hand around the bottle. Get a rubberband, and putting one end around your index finger that is on the bottle, and stretching it to the left hand (thumb I suppose), draw the rubber band tight, like you might do if shooting the rubber band across the room. Now, try to pull the band with your trigger finger without pressing in on the bottle, which will collapse in if you put any pressure on it. This will help you isolate the muscles of the index finger, as well as train your brain to only send it signals, not the whole hand :)

As to your left hand, once wrapped around the gun, you should squeeze with that hand so hard that the nails of your right hand are imprinted on the palm of the left hand. When Phil used his left hand on my gun/shooting hand, so I'd have an idea how hard he wanted us to hold with that hand, he about smashed my fingers. It seemed to be about as hard as he could possibly grip with that hand. And the thumb pointing that TJ's video mentions, that's also a big key.

As to Troy's statement that why would you buy a gun that needs a special grip, the simple answer is, it doesn't. That you are having trouble shooting a 1911 design is an indication you have an improper grip to start with. The only difference in grip when using a 1911 or other manual thumb safety model, and something like a Sig or Glock which has no manual safety, is you'll want to move that right thumb away from the side of the gun, and place it more or less over the left hand. I lay it over the outside of my left thumb. Why you ask do you not leave it in the same place you do with a 1911? On many guns, like Glocks and Sigs, that right thumb would much of the time make contact with the slide release, and that slight pressure will prevent the slide from locking back. So unless you have a 'thumb rest' such as a 1911 safety to keep that right thumb from touching the slide release lever, the shooting hand thumb (well, the right thumb really, unless a lefty has an ambi slide release, otherwise this issue doesn't affect them) should be placed away from the slide. This also helps reduce how hard you grip with the right/shooting hand, so it's not tense when trying to pull the trigger. When the trigger hand is tense is when you will typically pull the gun while pulling the trigger :)

So really, all guns should use the same grip, it's just seeming to be more noticeable for you with this new gun. But now you'll start to learn a proper grip, and when you shoot other guns, you'll find you are more consistent and don't have the type of problem again :)

Rogueone
 
I'll give this a shot, pun intended, Rogueone. Thanks for the tips on the grip. It doesn't seem like I was letting my wrist break a great amount, but I will pay attention more next time. If you don't focus on your wrist, it's kind of hard to know how much it is breaking.

IanS, my FTE's were not stove pipes, but they were laying down flat. All the FTE's were flat. No stove pipes at all. Do you think this means the extractor never really grabbed the lip or that the 230g reloads weren't throwing the slide back fast or far enough?

Thanks for the videos, Axion. I'll try to practice with this and incorporate the lesson.
Next time I shoot I will use factory higher powered ammo, to see if this helps. I put about 100 rounds through it. I'll clean it up tonight and try to incorporate these things next time I shoot. I'm actually a little smoother if I shoot moderately fast, versus taking my time. I think my pull must be better.

Thanks a lot for the advice. I've never had this problem with 9mm or .380s, but this is my first experience with a big bore gun. I still had a lot of fun even though I was discouraged.
 

Cowart

New member
Do you think this means ... that the 230g reloads weren't throwing the slide back fast or far enough?

To see if your ammo's power is low, load only one round in the magazine. Chamber and fire as normal. The slide should lock back. Repeat 10 time or so. If the slide doesn't lock back every time, the ammo is underpowered for your particular gun.
 

IanS

New member
IanS, my FTE's were not stove pipes, but they were laying down flat. All the FTE's were flat. No stove pipes at all. Do you think this means the extractor never really grabbed the lip or that the 230g reloads weren't throwing the slide back fast or far enough?

What I meant weren't stovepipes but an empty case stuck in the chamber in which case the slide may try to chamber another live round from the magazine. I'm not sure what you mean by "laying down flat". Can you describe where the empty case was? Do try having someone else try the pistol (like someone who works at the range who's shot .45's before) with their reloads. And get a box of Fiocchi, Speer Lawman, Blazer, or American Eagle and try them out with your Wilson mags as well. If there's still a problem call Springfield customer service.

Accept the recoil of the .45. If you are flinching or anticipating the recoil you could be breaking your wrist as well. You're the shooting platform for the pistol. So its your job to be as stable as possible. Embrace the recoil and be aggresive.
 
The range doesn't make you use their reloads. I just didn't have any with me.

IanS,
the FTE occurs with the spent casing getting lodged between the slide and the barrel. The next bullet can't come up into the chamber for feed because the spent shell is stuck right above it. The spent casing is laying flat caught between the slide and barrel. Sorry if I wasn't very clear in describing how the casing was jamming.
 

IanS

New member
It sounds it could be an extractor issue. Or it could still be the light reloads. Have someone at the range check to see your extractor claw is ok if you dont' know what to look for. Get some stouter factory loads as I listed above and report back to us.
 

onesiphorus

New member
I solved a similar problem by not buying SA 1911's anymore. 2 0f the 3 I have owned had similar problems. I now buy Kimber, RIA and Colts. Problem fixed!
 

Alleykat

Moderator
You won't know whether you had an ammo problem until you get some real ammo and make a special effort to keep your wrists AND ELBOWS from acting like shock absorbers.

More-than-likely, the crappy range reloads were the culprits.
 
Thanks Guys.
I hope the reloads were the problem.
I will focus on the advice you guys gave me and watch my wrists and elbows.
I will take a look at the extractor tonight. What really should I look for? What can be wrong with an extractor other than being cracked or having a messed up claw.
 

RickB

New member
Extractor tension can be an important issue, although I've found extractor travel - how far the hook moves, or can move - to be very important. A fairly standard test is to field strip the gun, and "hang" a loaded round on the extractor, as it would if you'd extracted a live round from the chamber. The round should sag at the front, due to the weight of the bullet, but not drop off the extractor if the slide is tilted or rotated. Hang an empty case on the extractor, and it shouldn't move at all. What you may find though, is that the case or live round falls off unless centered on the hook. It shouldn't drop off until pushed downward about .10" from centered; if it falls off with little downward movement, the extractor isn't moving inward enough to control the case properly.
 

Axion

New member
There's nothing unique or "special" about gripping a 1911. Its just like any correct grip on a handgun. The only difference between my grip when I grip a 1911 vs. say a Glock or SIG is my thumb is resting or riding on the thumb safety.

Yup I didn't mean too much by that comment except exactly that issue. When shooting a Sig you can't overdo the "thumbs high" thing or you can interfere with the slide catch.
 

Lurper

New member
For the low left part, check the amount of finger on the trigger. Typically many shooters will use too much finger. That causes the group to move left and a bit down (oddly, for some too little can have the same effect). Another test is to fire a group strong hand only and see if the groups are still low left. If they aren't, then it is a good indication that you are influencing the gun with your weak hand. You want to achieve a neutral grip and stance - no undue influence on the gun. As far as the wrist position goes, it should be the same position as it is when you shake someone's hand. Make sure the gun is centered in the web between the thumb and forefinger (Todd shows that well in his video - if the style looks similar, it is. We learned at the same time from the same persons). Keep your wrist in the natural position. Your wrists should be firm, elbows relaxed. That will convert some of the upward motion into rearward motion.
 
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