Shooting an "unarmed" BG?

[Drjones]

I put "unarmed" in quotes because you never really know if someone is truly unarmed. The best you can say is there is no weapon visible.

Anyhow, I have a serious question, and two scenarios.

1) This was prompted by an actual event I just heard on the news. A girl was on campus at a local university at 7am (broad daylight, mind you) when a masked man jumped out of a bush, knocked her to the ground and began attempting to sexually assault her. Fortunately, she was able to get away, but things could very easily have NOT gone in her favor.

My question is: if you witnessed the ENTIRE event from the beginning, so that there is NO question in your mind that this is definitely an attack in progress, what do you do?

Specifically, can you shoot? I believe you would be justified in doing so because:

- You don't know for a fact that he doesn't have a weapon (either drawn or concealed) This can include a knife and other non-guns

- You don't know that he couldn't just kick your butt hand-to-hand if you decide not to use your weapon.

Also: You have a CLEAN shot at him, and there are very few others around.

What do you do?


2) You are in your home, say daytime or early evening. Let's forget about early warning systems and the like, just for sake of this discussion, ok?

You go into a room (kitchen, whatever) and see an intruder. Again, he isn't visibly armed. You draw on him, but he advances, saying something like "I only wanna talk to you...I need some help..."

He does NOT react to the sight of your gun. He keeps coming at you, despite your clear verbal warnings.

Could you/would you shoot?


Drjones

 

[DadOfThree]

In either case if I pulled the gun and the BG doesn't stop, he's toast. If he gives up or runs, I wouldn't shoot. He may deserve to be shot, but I am not going to go through the courts to prove it. I won't stand there getting the snot beat out of me and not shoot him just because he doesn't have a gun. He shouldn't have bit off more than he could chew.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

In the first case, Florida law permits the use of deadly force to stop the commission of a felony. It also allows for use of deadly force to prevent death or great bodily injury and rape falls under great bodily injury. So there is no doubt about that one.

The second one, an intruder inside my house that does not obey directions, isn't trying to run away, but advances toward me will be shot. Under Florida law, this is also a legal shooting.

 

[seeker_two]

Same in Texas...

 

[Sindawe]

Fascinating

Not sure of what the "Law" states in the first case here in Colorado, but I know for darn sure that were *I* to witness such a situation, the attacker would find him/her self the proud owner of at least one additional orifice in their body if they ingnore first order to leave NOW.

2nd case, no problem. In my home w/o my leave and do not leave at first order to do so, they are cat food, No questions, no 2nd chances, no appeal to my better nature ( I ain't got one ). Colorado law cover me in such a case (should enough survive passage through GI track of the cats to ID), so I've no worries mate.

--------------

Goblins is Orcs is Trolls, no difference. All deserve nought but a quick dispatch to their 'reward', and painfull may it be.

 

[foghornl]

Since we still can't legally carry here in Ohio, I can't answre first question.

On part 2, any uninvited [ahem] guest is dispatched as the vermin they are.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Drjones - sexual assault? If that is the case, the guy DOES have a deadly weapon. He will be attempting to expose the victim to his bodily fluids, a potentially LETHAL BIOHAZARD. More over, there is a good likelihood he will be attempting to place his fluids inside her, thereby increasing the risk to her.

There have already been cases where people were threatened with being pricked by a needle of HIV drug users and where people with HIV have knowingly spread the disease to others. In such cases, it is established that such acts can inflict grave bodily harm and death. SO, there is definitely a dangerous weapon.

Okay, so you don't see any OTHER weapons and in your mind there is definitely an attack in progress. Can you shoot? Sure, but then again, how do you actually know that the supposed bad guy and victim are not engaged in a public rape fantasy? Even if there NO question in your mind doesn't mean that what you believe is reality. Shooting sooner to prevent harm to the woman may be a mistake. This is a situation where you need to verify the act is real by ordering the guy away and if he doesn't respond, then you may act. Keep in mind that by shooting him you may be exposing the victim to the same dangerous bodily fluids, so if he has open wounds from the struggle, but has not been raped yet, and you spill this guy's blood all over her, then you have done the potentially lethal damage for him, but saved her honor. That could turn out very bad, unfortunately.

For question two, an intruder IN your home in Texas can be considered as a dangerous threat. Armed or not, if the guy is an intruder then you can consider him a threat. I assume in the situation that you don't know the guy, aren't having work done, and he isn't a police officer securing your home after a burglary or a fireman, etc. You know he doesn't belong because it is your home and nobody else is to be there. I assume you are fully in your home and not standing in an open exterior doorway. Since I am sort of semi-trapped inside with a guy advancing on me, the solution for me would be to back up and try to open the distance as best as possible and drop the guy. If I am in an exterior open doorway, then I just leave and call 911.

I have read through similar posts on similar scenarios in the past and apparently there are a lot of people out there who have what I would call high traffic homes. They have several friends or family that they grant free access without any concern because they trust those folks. Sometimes those friends and family have friends along with them and so encountering a stranger might not be all that unusual. My home situation is nothing like that and is generally a very limited access facility. I have no concern that some deaf friend of the family is somehow going to be inside my home unexpectantly, hence unfamiliar to me and unable to hear my commands. There won't be any deaf workers from the gas company inside my house to shut off the gun in some sort of natural gas leak emergency.

 

[CZ Gunner]

And they're always that pocket knife they found next to the body that looks like the one you used to own ....

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Sorry CZ Gunner, but that would be a very serious mistake. There are many citizens in jail for what was a legal use of deadly force because they decided to make it appear a little more justified by staging the scene. Be honest, state you feared for your life, don't elaborate and most importantly, don't doctor the scene of the shooting. The lab guys can do remarkable things with the evidence from a crime scene. If they catch you in one lie, everything else you say is no longer credible.

 

[ahenry]

He shoulda armed himself.

 

[glirette]

This is not legal advice but I believe both cases could be argued a justified shoot in almost any state.

The first case involves a women and a man, in this situation you already have “Disparity of force.” If the other factors needed for a justified shoot are present, the fact that he does not have a “weapon” does not change anything. The question is does the attacker pose a deadly threat or grave bodily harm, the answer is an almost instant yes when you have a man and a women regardless of the size of each (according to Ayoob). The nature of the attack in this case no doubt makes it justifiable.

Second case

Another situation that is taught by Ayoob. You have an unarmed man who you have rightfully drawn a gun on, you have done this because he has broken into your house. You warn him to back off or leave your property but instead he advances. You must assume that his intentions are to attempt to disarm you and shoot you with your own gun. By advancing forward he asserts that he does have the ability to disarm you, perhaps he does not but if he believes it to be true you would be a fool to not assume he can. This situation is not much different if the gun was sitting on a table and he is reaching for it.

 

[koffin]

justified shoot definitly.....

read your state laws on the use of deadly force. Most allow for it to stop a felony or to stop other acts of deadly force.

most states include serious bodily injury as deadly force and a sexual assault is certainly serious bodily injury.

of course as with anything you must be able to justify your actions.

Where most people get in trouble is in the civil side of things. Bottom line, if you have an alternate sollution to the problem that does not involve the loss of life but fail to take it, your up the creek whether the shooting was legal by law or not.

 

[spacemanspiff]

1st scenario: You are in fear for the safety and life of the one being attacked. deadly force may be the only option. i wouldnt rule out the others however, such as verbally confronting the attacker and making further decisions on whats next on how he responds.

2nd scenario: its the same basic principle (fear for safety) but not necessarily as easy to determine. maintain a good distance between yourself and the unknown possible threat? absolutely. light him/her up? going to have to think twice.

 

[joeislove]

Scenario 1: Draw weapon. Issue a verbal command to cease the attack and lie face down on the ground with hands behind head. If vermin persists in his attack, or turns to attack me, Mozambique. If he turns to run, let him go, while trying to memorize his features for later ID. Make sure victim is OK. Call 911.

Scenario 2: Draw weapon. Inform intruder that if he does not stop, I will shoot. If he does not immediately stop, Mozambique. If he runs, let him go, while trying to memorize his features for later ID. If he stops, but does not run, order him to lie face down on the ground with hands behind head. If he will not comply, give him one more chance to comply. If he does not comply the second time, I must assume he is looking for an opportunity to hurt me, so I double-tap center mass. Call 911.

Basically, I would try not to shoot, but I would definitely shoot if it looked like the only way to stop potential death or injury to myself or another.

 

[MessedUpMike]

Scene One could get sticky, as previously mentioned it could be part of some sort of fantasy, it could be a boyfriend who forgot himself for a minute, or it could be a "simple" rape/assault. My piont is that the situation may well present more than meets the eye. I would certainly give some sort of verbal warning, and may even try to intervene without shooting if I can do so safely. Md has some stupid criminal laws, and these days some people would rather prosecute cops than criminals so I'd rather not end up on the receiving end of that garbage.
Scene Two, way more cut and dried. I drew my side arm because the intruder made me feel threatened for my life. I gave him a verbal warning, and he continued to advance confirming to me his intent to do me bodily harm. Bang, Bang.


Mike

 

[Dennis]

?? ... "simple" rape/assault ... ??

"... a masked man jumped out of a bush, knocked her to the ground and began attempting to sexually assault her..."

If that's my wife, my Mother, one of my daughters or one of my granddaughters whom you save, you won't be able to buy your own favorite beverage so long as I have money or credit.

Just be careful you don't hurt the rape victim. Otherwise, after the loud noise, you can say.
Bad timing, sucker!
Adios.
Good-bye.
Sayonara.
Tschuess.
Do Svidaniya.
Do Widzenia.
Nameste, jii.
Say hello to the Lord of the Flies when you get there.
or your own favorite pejorative farewell.
- - -

Scenario #2? In my home? An intruder who is unknown to me?
He refuses to stop coming at me?
I am the last line of defense between him and my family.

He'll meet up with the rapist in the Underworld.
- - -

False bravado? Don't try me. I've seen too many of the victims when I was in EMS. I remember the injured men, sure, but it's the women and even little children who remain uninvited and unwanted in my dreams a decade later.

Jeez, Drjones, you sure hit a hot button with me this time. I'm shakin' like a leaf.

 

[John G]

In many places, (like NYS) deadly force can be used to stop rape or even ARSON. Its on the books, but I don't remember hearing of the latter actually happening.

 

[Drjones]

Scene One could get sticky, as previously mentioned it could be part of some sort of fantasy, it could be a boyfriend who forgot himself for a minute, or it could be a "simple" rape/assault

Let me point something out here: I would give a verbal warning before shooting. Of course.

Now, for the quote above; anyone who thinks rape is funny, and as such, recreates such a scene in public, deserves to be shot. This includes the female, if she considers rape so amusing. If rape is some fantasy of yours, well, I think you're sicker than ****, but whatever. Just don't do it in public where you risk getting SHOT.

Something about the "prudent individual" rule/law comes to mind... Not to mention the kid who thought it would be funny to break into his sleeping uncles bedroom armed with a toy gun. Kid caught a .357 in the chest, and rightfully so. Some of lifes lessons are learned the hard way.

 

[MessedUpMike]

Uh, let me try that again...

What I maen by "simple" is that the situation, and the appropriate response is a "simple" issue. There's no room for error, everything is obvious to the observer, it's a clean OK to fire situation. Unfortunately a lot of situations are not that cut and dried.
Those of us who work, or have worked, in EMS long enogh know that domestic violence situations are rarely predictable, and even more rarely make sense. A person who is a victim on minute, may well become the assailant's defnded the next. I've seen more than a few battered victims refuse to have their significant others arrested, and in some cases will try to stop the arrest as much as possible. This makes the situation not "simple".
I'm not here to debate the rights or wrongs about how domestic abuse situations are handled, nor the need to shoot these sort of individuals even if they do deserve it. My statement was as I said "simple" as in this was a clear shoot/don't shoot scenario with a quick and easy answer.
I hope this clarifies my earlier statement.


Mike

 

[CWL]

DrJones,

Since you live in N. California, Scenario 2 will get you arrested, and then you will be sued by a multiple of the deceased's relatives. Huge legal bills no matter what.

If the intruder was not armed, you will more than likely serve some prison time.

Just pointing out the ugly truth. Before anyone tries to flame me, first brush up on your CA case law.