shoot don't shoot

[don't shoot it's me]

A friend of mine was robbed at gunpoint last night 10pm pacific time while picking up his son at his ex-wife's house. As he walked out into the driveway, out of nowhere, a voice said, "give me your money or I'll blow your head off." His money was in the car in a fanny pack and he told him so. As he reached in to get it, the attacker stuck the barrel of the saturday night special in the back of his head and told him to give him the whole pack. He handed it over and the attacker made him lie prone in the driveway and then ran off. My friend's 10 year old son witnessed this from about 10 feet away as he followed him out. All the while my friend had a 342pd strapped to his ankle. Even if it were in his waistband I doubt he would have been able to pull it successfully. Scary thought. Even scarier is my frined is a reserve sheriff and had his badge and ID in his fanny pack. Had he not been carrying the pack and he had handed over his ID, he might have been shot on the spot. I asked my friend what went through his head and he thought about making a grab for the attacker's gun and possibly pulling his own if time allowed but all he could really think about was his son and what would happen if a stray bullet caught him...something to think about when out with loved ones...might be a good idea to make a plan ahead of time...i told my girlfriend if she ever sees me pull my gun to hit the ground.....i think my friend will now do the same with his son and anyone else....

 

[44rugerfan]

He did the right thing. Everything in the fanny pack can be replaced, your friend and his son cannot.

 

[croyance]

What are the chances of that move working? Especially compared to the risk to his son?
It seems, in my inexperience, that grabbing the gun could have lead to his death. How tramatic would it have been for his son to see him shot, and maybe killed?

As guys, we all want to be heros. Testosterone and too many movies I guess. But it doesn't mean that it is the smart thing to do.

If I remember, shooting at a fleeing man is a big legal no-no. Especially with the atmosphere of the country right now, his life would have been made a hell. The media would have crucified him, and an ambitious DA might have gone after him. That doesn't include the wrongful death civil suit. That for the contents of a fanny pack?

He did the right thing.

 

[cuerno de chivo]

what was his situational awareness like? the 'terrain', could someone hide easily? was the bg visible while leaving the vehicle or house? how's the neighborhood? what if he had shot them both anyway?

 

[don't shoot it's me]

a nice single story house with a driveway in the san fernando valley...the guy came from behind my friends car with the gun already leveled with a locked arm...the bag was inside the car. He proned him out and patted him down and my friend told him the money was in the bag in the car..he then held the gun on his neck as he pushed him into the car to retrieve it..a real pro...a lot went through my friends head but he was most grateful his ID was in the bag...had he seen his ID in his pocket with a badge, he probably would have assasinated him right there sicne most of these scum bags have been in county jail and sheriffs control the jails so it would be a payback (which has happened before)by the way, he only thought of grabbing the gun when he told him to lie down causse that made him think he was going to shoot him mob style....pretty traumatic for a ten year old to watch....

 

[Jay Baker]

D.S.I.M., what part of the San Fernando Valley?? Before I moved to Idaho, I lived in Studio City. "Follow homes," were not unusual there.

J.B.

 

[don't shoot it's me]

sherman oaks, just off ventura and willis

 

[Mikul]

If someone already has a gun pulled on you, you have little chance to outshoot him. If the person was within an arms length, there is a decent chance of disarming the goblin if you know what you're doing. Most people can't react fast enough if someone is close to them. That's why you should never let a dangerous person get within 20 feet of you. Try it with a friend and a water pistol some day.

The way I see it, you can risk doing something to prevent being shot, or you can risk the criminal being nice and not shooting you.

 

[Jay Baker]

D.S.I.M, thanks. I've been along Ventura Blvd., a couple thousand times or so and am very familiar with the area.

My next door neighbor in Studio City, just north of Moorpark Blvd., had the same thing happen to him in his driveway one night, late. No injuries, thankfully. My neighbor was not armed. Suspects never caught.

By the way, the robber of your S.R. friend is lucky the victim was not a friend of mine, Dep. Fred Keelin. I think things would have turned out differently. JMHO. J.B.

 

[GSB]

This looks to me like a situation that is impossible to predict a "correct" solution for. In hindsight, this man reacted properly because he and his son are still alive. Had the thug decided to eliminate witnesses and then killed the man and his son, the man would have reacted incorrectly.

This is one of those horrible flip of the coin type situations I hope never to be in.

Yes, this guy was right in this instance. He played the odds and thankfully it worked out for him.

I think the better lesson to take from this story is to ask ourselves how the situation could have been prevented from developing in the first place. What measures could the man have taken so as no to be surprised like this (cameras, lights, better situational awareness, etc)?

 

[don't shoot it's me]

I'm sure Deputy Keelin is a crack shot but it's hard to predict anything, especially with a little kid involved..each situation is different and we never know exactly how we will react...basically, if the gun isn't already in your hand at that point, things are not going to be in your favor.....

 

[Jay Baker]

D.S.I.M., I certainly agree with you, re pulling a gun when a bad guy already has the drop on you.

I was referring to a disarming technique against this very situation, when a bad guy has a gun up against the back of your head... and that Fred taught that disarming technique to cadets and field Deps,. when he was a Weapons Training Instructor with Advanced Training Bureau, out at Pitchess, at the range.

Yes, he's a crack shot, too. And very, very fast with his moves.

Best of luck to you. J.B.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Personally, I'd have dropped and fired from sitting. Better risk one rushed shot at some distance than get executed with a contact shot.

 

[scoops]

with a gun to the back of your head there is absolutly nothing you can do but do what the man says.there are no options at this point.now once her ran off id be after him.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, I would have yelled at the kid to run away and then decided what I would do. At least that would have potentially removed the kid from the situation. Ideally that would keep the kid from being a factor, assuming he did run away.

What an interesting set of answers to a real life scenario. Every one of the answers, it seems, is potentially correct, potentially incorrect, potentially brilliant and potentially stupid.

First there are those answers that basically say that complete compliance was the only thing to do given the situation. I find that interesting in that so many posts on TFL refer to people that don't try to protect themselves as sheeple. GSB says that the guy reacted properly because he and his son are alive. Interesting logic, but that only is applicable as a hind sight assessment. All too often, compliance does not equate with getting away safely. However, there are some BGs that really don't want conflict or confrontation and would rather just grab the money and run, and be happy with that.

Oleg Volk thought he would drop down there and go for the ankle rig. Neat idea, might work by catching the BG off guard, but then again, ankle rigs are generally slow draws and sitting down means that you have just made yourself a literal sitting target. However, this is a pro-active and non-sheeple sort of reaction. Apparently, Oleg was not willing to bet that the good graces of the BG would preserve his life or the life of his son.

scoops suggested that he would go after the guy. This is the only response I actually disagree with in total. Once the guy is gone, I see no need in going to look for trouble. After all, you know he is armed. The only advantage you have on your side is that he has demonstrated that he doesn't want to shoot you, but you don't know under what conditions he believes should be shoot or no shoot.

And then there was the disarming idea. This might work as well, in large part due to surprise. In the latest issue of Combat Handguns, there is an article on negligent/accidental discharges and it talks about certain reactions that cause the person holding the gun with their finger on the trigger to pull the trigger involuntarily. While the bad guy may not consciously pull the trigger, a variety of stimuli may cause him to do so involuntarily and no matter how fast the move is, it probably won't be faster than the bullet and involuntary response. No doubt, the move would beat a voluntary response because action beats reaction, but this is probably only certain for conscious effort situations.

And before anyone flames me, aside from yelling at the kid to run, I probably would have complied completely as well, and then wondered my entire life if I could have done something differently.

 

[Jay Baker]

Scoops, you go ahead and believe what you wish about there is absolutely nothing you can do if a badguy has a pistol up against the back of your head, other than to hope, wish and pray that the badguy will choose to NOT blow your brains out, but you're wrong.

There is a particular disarming technique that is taught and practiced by peace officers, regarding this very specific scenario, and if done correctly, will work. Is it dangerous?? You damned betcha!!! But is it more dangerous than just hoping and wishing and praying that the b.g. decides to NOT blow out your brains, just for the helluvit?? (And there are plenty of bad guys out there who will kill you just for cheets and grins, even when you do everything they demand of you.)

That's a decision I hope I never have to make, and hope no one reading this ever has to make, but I do know that the technique, applied correctly, will work.

FWIW. J.B.

 

[don't shoot it's me]

actually spy, the disaming technique is quicker than the response of pulling the trigger...once you decide to make a move, time is on your side since it takes the other person a half second or so to process what is going on and another half second or so to pull the trigger..try it yourself... get an empty gun and have a friend hold it on your stomach with your hands in the air....tell him to say bang as soon as you move to knowck it away ....the barrel will be a foot the side of you each time.....now whether we want to try this on the street over money, that's an individual choice....remember, there was a kid involved and telling him to run might have got the b g thinking you were going to do something else and shoot you anyway....

 

[Skip-2]

It seems to me he did the right thing. The fact that he was thinking at the time means that he had not lost control but simply made the right decision at that time. Well done!

 

[GSB]

"GSB says that the guy reacted properly because he and his son are alive. Interesting logic, but that only is applicable as a hind sight assessment." -- Double Naughty Spy

Umm... yeah. That was kind of my whole point in the post. It was a complete "flip of the coin" situation. There was no way to determine the correct action before hand.

 

[HeadHunter]

"Geez, it all happened so fast.
He materialized right next to me.
I never saw him."

--The contents of the Dedicated Victims card in "Fighting Smarter" by Tom Givens.

Sounds like a software failure to me.