Shoot-don't shoot question...

[simonov jr]

I'm a ccw holder in IN, and carry regularly. This is a hypothetical but one I think I should have worked out in advance. I know officers shoot people all the time for "pointing a gun at them", or even "going for a gun". Seems to me if i'm driving and someone in the course of a road-rage harrassment of me, either brandishes a gun or POINTS it at me , I have a couple of tough choices to make. If I'm likely going to be in a fight, esp. against an armed opponent, common sense says getting in the first round can save my ass. What it comes down to is, do either actions by an aggresor justify me firing the first shot? at brandish, he has shown a capacity to kill me but arguably no "intent" to kill me. Yet the fact remains that he can put a round through my door in a blink. remember Tueller? Does this apply to a pistol round less than a knife-wielding psycho? At "point", seems like he's demonstrating all the requisites of means, motive and intent, BUT, can I LEGALLY take "pre-emptive action" because I'm staring down the barrel of his gun? A cop surely could and no doubt would. Any expertise?

 

[GunGeek]

Seems to me if i'm driving and someone in the course of a road-rage harrassment of me, either brandishes a gun or POINTS it at me , I have a couple of tough choices to make.

Truthfully in a vehicle situation I would try to get out of there, hit the gas/brakes and move, Chances of either of you hitting each other is almost nill if you are moving, I wouldn't even think of shooting back unless I am traped.

 

[4V50 Gary]

Concur with GunGeek on disengagement. Get out of there not by racing the culprit but by sudden braking and sharp (but safe) turns. Have cell phone at hand (use headphone) and call 911. A felonly car stop at their expense will make their life miserable. Finally, should it come down to justifiable deadly force, what do you think is better? Your handgun or your car?

 

[Greybeard]

Unfortunately, a rather realistic scenario in many areas. Good to be mentally prepared for.

A second here for what GunGeek says. You can drive or you can shoot, but you can not expect to do either one well at the same time. Use of handgun a last resort, preferably from hard cover.

Side windows can provide little protection. Windshield considerably better. Brake, turn, avoid, evade, escape. Time and distance your best friends.

Related book, "Drive to Survive", I believe available thru www.ayoob.com.

 

[El Rojo]

If you feel your life in in immenient danger and you can reasonably prove this to a jury, you can legally shoot. If someone is pointing a firearm at you with the intent of threatening or harming you, you would be jusitified in defending your life. Some states have the obligation to flee laws, but what travels faster? Your car or the other person's bullet?

Getting into a shootout is going to ruin your day, if you survive. If you can avoid it, that is most certainly the best way. If the guy has a knife and you are in your car, drive away. If your car is disabled, lock the doors, roll up the windows, and I would be ready to draw my weapon. If the person attempts to break in the car, I would draw and let them see what the cost of breaking into my car is. If they don't stop, I would defend my life.

 

[King]

I would make maximum effort to avoid a shooting situation with with the occupants of another vehicle if at all possible. Mostly, I see a lose / lose situation.

The key elements are the road rage and the brandishment of the weapon, possible witnesses and proving intent by the occupants of the other vehicle. As noted on the other posts, there is also the issue of accuracy and being able to reliably hit your target.

Even if you were able to hit your target, consider that there may be a serious by-product of your action......the other car runs into someone else and innocent people are injured or killed. Worse, you run into someone else.

I would have to be totally out of options and my life clearing hanging in the balance before I would shoot. My feeling however is that you can distance yourself from the road rage in almost every situation if you really want to.

 

[ctdonath]

115-grain projectile vs. 115,000,000-grain projectile. Pick one.

I suggest you take a REAL driving course. Read "Drive To Survive".

Shooting accurately from a moving vehicle is very hard (trust me) WITHOUT being the driver. Trying to control a car in a dangerous situation while monkeying around with holsters & sights is too much.

A tap on the brakes will create a lot of distance fast. You can get out of his sights and into a controlling position a lot faster than you can draw.

 

[El Rojo]

Is this a moving vehicle scenario? I was thinking it was you just got in an accident and now your vehicles are stopped and the road rager is out of the vehicle and heading your way.

Moving vehicles? BRAKES!!! I am going to try to flee in such a case. Shooting at someone in a moving vehicle from a moving vehicle is about as dangerous to innocent bystanders as I can think of. If it turns into a high speed pursuit, that is just as bad. If it comes to a car chase, I might try to find an area to bail out of my car and seek a good defense position behind cover. That way I reduce the chance of my pursuit causing a dangerous accident and now I am stationary behind cover and the pursuer has to make a decision whether they think they can attack my defended position and live. Again this position would have to withstand the additonal attack of a very heavy vehicle. I think a decent sized freeway overpass support beam would work well. You can seek cover two yards behind it. As the vehicle moves your way, just have your head and pistol around the side. If he tries to ram you, move. I don't think a car or even a SUV is going to plow through a concrete support beam and cause the overpass to come down on you. Only bad thing is if the pursuer is smart and stops their vehicle short and has the passenger side towards you, they now have the cover of their vehicle to shoot at you while you are behind a relatively small support beam with very few options to retreat. Maybe the freeway support beam is not a good idea afterall unless you have quick access to a rifle or shotgun, but even then, it might not be a good idea.

I think the main thing is brake and turn around and go the other way. If that is not possible; brake, get out of your vehicle and seek cover or just plain run away. They might realize they are facing a couple decades in prison and flee themselves.

 

[gringo5]

Egress. If you have a way out and are not trapped take it. As GunGeek says ,Tap the brakes or gas and get out of the zone.

 

[Jesse H]

I'd bail.

I'm a MUCH better driver than I am a shooter thanks to SCCA events.

 

[wolfman97]

The short answer is that, if you decide to pull your weapon in any case, then you better be able to prove that you had no other choice (you couldn't possibly run or hide, and you are in clear imminent danger of death or great bodily injury), or you are probably going to be facing a felony charge. If there is any possible option open except for pulling the weapon, then you are going to be in trouble.

In the situation described above where you are in the car with the windows rolled up and there is someone outside with a knife, you would be well-advised not to display your weapon at all unless and until he actually breaks the window. If you pull it before then, he can always put the knife away and tell the cops that you pulled a gun on him for no reason. You may or may not win that case, but you will certainly be paying lawyers for no good reason. If you wait until he breaks the window, then you will at least have clear evidence that you were under a threat.

Please note that, even if you pull a weapon, that won't stop anything incoming, so the best bet is always to scram if you can.

 

[Blackhawk]

Depends on your "reasonable belief" that you're in imminent danger of being injured or killed if you don't act.

Subjective? You bet!

 

[hube1236]

Yeah shoot to kill!

And when you are cleared in the justifiable homicide, you get to get sued by everyone the speeding car with the dead driver hit and maimed.

If anyone is killed because of your shootout, you get to face criminal depraved indifference murder 2 charges. Best to get out of there, stop, and exit the car. Get away from the situation, or limit it to just the two of you.

No matter which way you slice it, you will lose no matter what. Keep it in your pants and flee.

 

[KSFreeman]

Run, run, run away!

Blackhawk, it's actually an objective/subjective test=>What would the reasonable man do under those circumstances. Ah, yes, who is the reasonable man? It's always simplier in the gunshop.

Hube, I don't know what you describe is. It may be what we up here call Reckless Homicide or Criminal Recklessness Causing Serious Bodily Injury. Point taken though: Problem #2!!!

 

[Blackhawk]

KSFreeman,

it's actually an objective/subjective test=>What would the reasonable man do under those circumstances.

Isn't that just another way of saying "reasonable belief"? Based on the objective facts and conclusions drawn from them, a "reasonable man" would think... yadda, yadda.

If it was purely objective, you couldn't shoot first because you couldn't know in advance that the BG was going to shoot at you.

If it was purely subjective... well, there's no sense in going there....

 

[JohnKSa]

I doubt a jury would identify with either of two guys driving down the road side by side shooting at each other.

In fact, it's hard for me to make up a scenario where a civilian driver shooting from a moving car makes sense.

 

[Blue Jays]

Slam on the brakes in a cloud of acrid tiresmoke...

Hi Everyone-

...and the roadrager with too much red meat in his/her diet will lose interest in the stupid game.

If you can slam on the brakes and pull onto the grass median, even better! Now you're turned-around and pulling away from each other at a combined 160 m.p.h. Now you're the one calling 9-1-1 about the kook in the 1981 primer-gray Bondo Chariot who is threatening innocent people on the road.

Use yer' firearms when firearms are the best tool for the job. This scenario isn't one of those times.

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[illuminatus99]

if I was boxed in I'd ram their car off the road before I'd ever pull a gun on the highway. getting away is still the best option, it's hard to shoot someone while driving and especially hard when they're evading.