Shipping "halves"

Onslaught

New member
Having shipped quite a few handguns over the last several months, I have been feeling the squeeze of all those "imposed" charges we have to deal with...

But when I shipped my slide to PT for night sight warranty work, it cost me $6!!! I sent it US Postal Service, priority mail, insured, and it was $6...

So I wondered. Since it's not really a LAW anyway, but more of a suggestion, couldn't one send the FRAME of a pistol via UPS ground, saving at least $15 - $20 that way???

Then, when I made a sale/swap with someone I trusted here on TFL, I could mail the slide/barrel assembly directly to them via the Post Office, and the FRAME would have to go through an FFL, but it wouldn't cost me $25 - $30 to ship it...

Any thoughts on that? Or does UPS require ANY serial numbered part go overnite? I got the impression that it was complete firearm for UPS, and any serial numbered part for Post Office...
 

Hkmp5sd

New member
According to the ATF and Federal Law, the definition of a firearm includes the "frame or receiver of any such weapon," which is why you have to send it through an FFL when selling to another state.

As such, you have to go by whatever the required shipping method is for a complete firearm.
 

Onslaught

New member
According to the ATF and Federal Law, the definition of a firearm includes the "frame or receiver of any such weapon," which is why you have to send it through an FFL when selling to another state.
Understood... Which is why I would ship the frame United Parcel, not United Postal, BUT the "overnight shipping" rule of the UPS is a UPS rule, not a US government law. So just because the ATF and Feddies consider my frame a firearm, I'm still wondering why I couldn't just ship the frame United Parsel ground to an FFL and claim it as "firearm parts" (for loss insurance purposes, it has to be specific)but not a complete pistol??? Doing so breaks no laws that I'm aware of, so all that's stopping me is the UPS guy/gal. Do these folks at the counter know that a frame by itself is supposed to be considered a complete firearm?
 

jmlv

New member
perfectly legal

I find if you ship in a long box like say a rifle or shotgun would come in and declare it as a "firearm" they usually don't question you about it,and send it ground. I prefer a stiff box with a hard guncase inside it for rigidity gun case is perfect for packing the gun in as well. this crap is only a ups reg. any way you can gewt around it is fine by me. By the way if you get a ffl holder to send it he can send it by prioty mail from theclocal PO. perfectly for ffl holders to do between themselves
 

Paul in RI

New member
Shipping with UPS

UPS generally charges me $35 to ship a complete handgun to a smith several shipping zones away. I recently sent the frame of my Glock to Robar in Arizona, and was told at the counter that if it couldn't be readily used as a gun, it wasn't a gun. I shipped it 3 day parcel for something like $12-$15. I asked the guy twice, he insisted it was O.K.
The next time I ship a handgun (even a revolver) I'm going to try separating them.
 

Coltdriver

New member
An acquaintenace of mine who shall remain anonymous told me that the UPS rule was to prevent theft by UPS employees.

The handling and accounting of some packages is different from others.

If a wiley employee sees your suspicously heavy small package going to The GunStore he might just check it out and you wind up with an insurance claim or even worse an insurance denial because UPS is self insured and they set the rules.
 

James K

Member In Memoriam
The frame legally is the gun. If you ship it by common carrier to an FFL dealer (not a C&R licensee) after receiving a copy of his license; then you can send the other parts any way you want and to anyone you want (in the US), by carrier or mail.

One thought, though. You can get into a misunderstanding on some guns because the legal "frame or receiver" is not the part with the handle. One such is the Luger, where the frame is the part that holds the breechblock, not the grip piece. The Ruger .22 autos are the same; the round receiver is the serial numbered part, not the grip.

Jim
 

jmlv

New member
Actually I have been told that on the luger

BOTH PARTS are considered firearms. This is becouse the serial number is on the frame but the disconnested top end WILL fire a reond if there is one in the chamber and you press it correctly. What you are saying IS true about RUGER std auto 22's through. The barrel and reciever are the firearm not the grip frame.
 

jimsbowies

New member
rumors get started

Many have said that the reason UPS now insists on the overnight shipping of firearms as some sort of "liberal" effort to deny rightful owners of firearms the capability to send their firearms for repairs, inspection or modifications.

Nothing could be further from the truth...the reason UPS wanted and insists on overnight is due to theft. They will not publicly say this but internal documents and insiders say that the reason was that their employees had figured out that a heavy box sent to (for example) Novaks or ThunderRanch or Robar was not a brick nor a box of tootsie rolls...and these guns and parts had a proclivity towards disappearing...

So UPS, which rides "herd"...second by second on their overnight deliveries, and can pretty much tell within a few seconds and a few feet about where a package is and who has their hands on it....decided that this was a best business practice to stem the theft of firearms in transit within the UPS system...and it has worked....

just FYI:)
 

LIProgun

New member
Not legal advice

This is actually something I have had occasion to consider before and do some preliminary research into. Here's what I've come up with, FWIW.

It appears that postal regulations do not define a handgun as does GCA '68. That is, postal regs define "Pistol or Revolver" as "A pistol or revolver is a handgun designed to be fired by the use of a single hand." This would mean a complete handgun, not a frame or other parts.

The postal regs further say:

432 Mailability

432.1 General

The following conditions apply:

a. Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as handguns) are nonmailable in the domestic mail except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0.

b. The disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon are nonmailable except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM C024.1.0 or C024.2.0.

[See: http://www.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub52.htm]

Right there we can see in subsection "b" that the only restriction applies to parts that can be readily reassembled into a weapon. Obviously, a frame alone cannot be so reassembled.

Next, Exhibit 432.1 ("Mailability Requirements for Firearms") doesn't deal with parts, but "Handguns," which are defined as complete handguns: "Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (for example, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles) are defined as handguns." Moreover, anything in Exhibit 432.1 would only be an exception to non-mailability, and not any additional restriction on mailing parts.

As far as I can tell, nowhere do postal regs define a handgun frame as a "firearm" or a "handgun," and the only mention of "parts" I could find restricts mailing "the disassembled parts of a handgun or other type of nonmailable firearm that can be readily reassembled as a weapon."

Clearly, one could ship a complete upper slide assembly and barrel as parts. That doesn't constitute a "pistol or revolver" under postal regs, nor is it a firearm under the GCA.

Now, if one ships, say, a handgun frame alone, that is not a "pistol or revolver" as defined in postal regs, nor something "that can be readily assembled as a weapon," and thus would be apparently mailable, notwithstanding the GCA definition of the frame, alone, as a "firearm."

Off hand, I don't recall anything in the GCA that would prohibit mailing a firearm as long as the recipient is authorized to receive the firearm (e.g., an FFL, a licensed manufacturer, etc.). I would need to check the GCA to be sure on this point.

So, the issue is: Can one legally mail a handgun by breaking it down into two shipments, one containing the frame, and the other with the remaining parts? It would seem so, but I am certainly not offering a legal opinion or advice on the point, nor am I suggesting anybody act on this discussion without further research and information.

I'm more than open to somebody finding the flaws in my legal reasoning, but I'd appreciate if you could cite some authority (e.g., laws, federal regs, ATF opinions, case law, ect.) for support so I can test my hypothesis. Probably the most helpful next step would be a review of the GCA to see what it has to say, if anything, about mailing firearms other than that the recipient be authorized to receive firearms in interstate commerce.
 

LIProgun

New member
Not legal advice - addendum

I took a further look at federal code and gun control regs. The only thing on point I found regarding use of US Mail is 18 USC Section 1715 ("Firearms as nonmailable; regulations"), which states:
Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable and shall not be deposited in or carried by the mails or delivered by any officer or employee of the Postal Service. Such articles may be conveyed in the mails, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe, for use in connection with their official duty, to officers of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Marine Corps, or Organized Reserve Corps; to officers of the National Guard or Militia of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District; to officers of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District whose official duty is to serve warrants of arrest or commitments; to employees of the Postal Service; to officers and employees of enforcement agencies of the United States; and to watchmen engaged in guarding the property of the United States, a State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District. Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to manufacturers of firearms or bona fide dealers therein in customary trade shipments, including such articles for repairs or replacement of parts, from one to the other, under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe.

Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

This section clearly delegates to the USPS the power to set regulations on mailing firearms, so nothing here trumps the postal regs I cited in my earlier post. In fact, this seems to be the authorization for such regs.

Then there is 27 CFR Sec. 178.147 ("Return of firearm"), which is not much help, but is not a further restriction:
A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. See Sec. 178.124(a) for requirements of a Form 4473 prior to return.

A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a licensed collector for any lawful purpose, and, notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the licensed collector may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic.

Finally, there are other sections regarding shipment of a "firearm" by common or contract carrier. These apparently prohibit shipping a firearm frame, since under these regs (and unlike postal regs) a "firearm" includes the frame or receiver. For example, see 18 USC Sec. 922 (f)(1) and 27 CFR 178.31 (c) ("Delivery by common or contract carrier"). These sections don't apply to the US Mail.

So, as far as I can tell, there is nothing that prohibits shipping a frame and the remaining gun parts in separate shipments via US Mail because neither shipment can be readily reassembled as a weapon. Again, I'm curious to see something in law that says one can't ship a firearm frame by US Mail.
 
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