Shell holder dimensions

Does anyone have accurate dimensions for a standard shell holder, for use in all standard single stage presses? I don't need dimensions for the actual case slot, but I'd like to verify my dimensions for the overall body of the shell holder.

Thanks.
 

NoSecondBest

New member
I don’t know that there is a “standard” dimension. As per Redding, they vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. There’s a video out about Redding’s competition shell holder set and it references the fact that there are differences in actual height from manufacturer to manufacturer and that can have an effect when using one brand of shell holder in another brand of press. I don’t know that it’s critical or not, I’ve been mixing them up for years with no problems. However, there are those who know a lot of things I don’t.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Not really sure what you're looking for.

lets call the part the case base rests on the "deck".
The below deck part, the part that slots into the press ram has been a standard size for decades now. I think that happened about the time the 7/8x14 thread pitch became the general standard for die body threads.

The "upper deck" part, the part that forms the slot retaining the case and extends up a bit is different heights and widths depending on who made it, (and possibly when)

Most of my shellholders are either Lyman or RCBS. And in the press are completely interchangeable. Differences in "upper deck height" really don't matter because you adjust your die to the shellholder you are using. And differences in width (diameter) don't usually matter on a press because that part doesn't do anything and there is space.

HOWEVER what works on a press might not work on other tools. My RCBS press doesn't care if I use Lyman shell holders, but my RCBS hand priming tool works only with RCBS shellholders. The Lyman ones are larger diameter "upper deck" (I don't know the actual correct term here, sorry) and that larger diameter interferes with the RCBS hand primer tool feed tray.

For those loading to get the max possible accuracy I'm sure they would only use the shell holder from the die maker. For general use ammo, I don't think it matters much, other than if there is some specific tool/brand incompatability, such as I mentioned.

Does this help?
 
It's the part that snaps into the ram that I'm concerned about. I may be looking at having to make a custom shell holder, and I want to be sure if I do it that it will work in my presses. The upper part is less critical, since I can get dimensions for the case head and rim from the SAAMI technical drawings.
 

hounddawg

New member
I would just grab a caliper/mike and just start measuring the ram slot and a holder.

Stupid question but since they make holders for every case head I can think of why make one?
 
Last edited:
hounddawg said:
Stupid question but since they make holders for every case head I can think of why make one?
It appears that I am going to have to make at least one, and possibly two, dies for my foray into loading .22 Long Rifle. A couple of companies advertise shell holders for .22LR, but they are all out of stock.
 

Metal god

New member
Are you milling them your self or using a machine shop ? If the later , I’d just take a shell holder and 22lr case with you . Tell them make me one of these that fits one of those . Although not the same that’s exactly what I plan to do when having custom comparator inserts made .
 

44 AMP

Staff
Personally, I think the idea of a shell holder that holds the rim of a rimfire case for reloading in a press is a BAD IDEA.

I'm not faulting your desire to experiment, I just think that this particular point creates risks that are not necessary.

I don't think anything pushing or pulling on the rim of a primed rimfire case is a good idea. I know, its a teeny case, there's not much powder at all, and you'll wear heavy gloves, safety glasses, and hopefully a face shield, and nothing SHOULD go wrong, BUT....what if it does??

Consider an alternate mechanical method for sizing and seating. one that doesn't put direct pressure on the rim.

I'm thinking of something like what Lee had back in the days of the Lee Loader. They had a "sizer die" that would FL size cases, without a press. It was a stand alone item, to add to your Lee loader gear IF you needed FL sizing (which the Lee Loader didn't do).

IT was a die body (IIRC not threaded for use in a press) and you pressed the case in using a bench vice. instead of a reloading press. You pushed the sized cases out with a rod (and the same vice, or a hammer) SLow, (really slow) but it did work. And there was nothing pushing or pulling on the case rim.

For .22LR you'll probably have to make it yourself or have it made for you, but consider the concept as a way to avoid the potential problems of using a rimfire case's rim.

Good luck and BE SAFE!
 

stagpanther

New member
Personally, I think the idea of a shell holder that holds the rim of a rimfire case for reloading in a press is a BAD IDEA.

I'm not faulting your desire to experiment, I just think that this particular point creates risks that are not necessary.

I don't think anything pushing or pulling on the rim of a primed rimfire case is a good idea. I know, its a teeny case, there's not much powder at all, and you'll wear heavy gloves, safety glasses, and hopefully a face shield, and nothing SHOULD go wrong, BUT....what if it does??

Consider an alternate mechanical method for sizing and seating. one that doesn't put direct pressure on the rim.

I'm thinking of something like what Lee had back in the days of the Lee Loader. They had a "sizer die" that would FL size cases, without a press. It was a stand alone item, to add to your Lee loader gear IF you needed FL sizing (which the Lee Loader didn't do).

IT was a die body (IIRC not threaded for use in a press) and you pressed the case in using a bench vice. instead of a reloading press. You pushed the sized cases out with a rod (and the same vice, or a hammer) SLow, (really slow) but it did work. And there was nothing pushing or pulling on the case rim.

For .22LR you'll probably have to make it yourself or have it made for you, but consider the concept as a way to avoid the potential problems of using a rimfire case's rim.

Good luck and BE SAFE!
I'm not sure I'm following this correctly--do you mean it's too risky to size a case that has a live primer?--Ummm yes, obviously, but I think the idea is to remove all existing residue from a spent case and then size before repriming. If you mean it's unsafe to use a press to seat a bullet in a charged case with primer--how is that less safe than doing it by hand--in which case the difference I see is the hand held die goes grenade while you're holding it as opposed to having it held in the press?
 

Metal god

New member
Didn’t the Lee loader require you to hammer the primer in . Not seeing a big difference and I assume the primed case is already sized so you’re only needing the holder for seating the bullet .
 

44 AMP

Staff
I'm not sure I'm following this correctly--do you mean it's too risky to size a case that has a live primer?--Ummm yes, obviously, but I think the idea is to remove all existing residue from a spent case and then size before repriming. If you mean it's unsafe to use a press to seat a bullet in a charged case with primer--how is that less safe than doing it by hand--in which case the difference I see is the hand held die goes grenade while you're holding it as opposed to having it held in the press?

If I am understanding it correctly, the OP is talking about reloading .22LR cases, and using the regular centerfire cartridge reloading tools (press, shellholder, etc) for at least some of the work. I see a potential problem with that.

Now, there's no problem resizing the fired brass by holding on to the rim, (obviously) but once you've done that, you're putting fresh primer compound into the rim, (making it "live" again) then powder in the case and the bullet.

Seating the bullet (and possibly crimping) I don't see as a high risk, even with the live rimfire rim, because the force pushing the case into the seater die is applied to the entire bottom of the case, NOT JUST the rim where the live primer now is.

Where I see a potential problem is when its time to remove the now assembled round from the seater die. When everything works normally, it takes amost no "pull" to remove the now loaded round from the seater die, Sometimes they will just fall free of their own weight.

But, what happens if things don't work normally (for any reason) and the round sticks in the seater? Using the regular style centerfire shell holder, with its slot holding the case rim, means lowering the ram puts pressure DIRECTLY ON THE PRIMER inside the case rim. What if its enough to crush or tear the rim?? That could result in detonation.

I know its hugely unlikely, but people do win the lottery (both the good way and the bad way), so I think using a different approach for that part of the reloading process, a way that puts no pressure on the rim, in any direction, would be a better idea.

Didn’t the Lee loader require you to hammer the primer in .

No, it did not. Though it may seem to look that way, that's not how it worked. You used the hammer (or a bench vice) to apply force on the tool which pushed the case down over the primer, seating it. ALL the force was applied to the case, no force was applied to the primer. The primer was not "hammered" in any way whatsoever.

This is also the way a press mounted priming arm primes cases. The primer is held stationary (no force is applied to the primer) and the ram pulls the case down over the primer, seating it.

My suggestion to eliminate the admittedly small risk of applying force to the primed rimfire rim would be to use a system without the regular centerfire shellholder slot when seating the bullet.

A push against the entire base of the case evenly should be fine for seating and having the die set up to allow the use of a "knock out rod", if needed would, as far as I can see eliminate the risk of putting pressure on the live primer rim.

I think taking the regular shellholder design and cutting it off flat, removing the hook part that forms the slot, and leaving just smooth platform would be best. It can push up, but without the hook part cannot pull down. Evenly applied pressure against the entire base of a rimfire round is fairly safe, pressure against only the rim (in either direction) is not.

I would also make sure your seater die has a clearance cut in the bottom to make certain there is no possibility of crushing the rim between the die and the shellholder.

Its tougher to explain than to illustrate, but drawing on the computer is beyond my personal tech skills. Sorry...
 
I believe he is loading pre-primed commercial cases and not reloading.

44 AMP said:
ALL the force was applied to the case, no force was applied to the primer.

Ummm, I'm afraid Isaac Newton would take issue with that. The primer's support surface hammers up with force equal and opposite to that hammering the case down over it. Technically a reaction force rather than an applied force, but it is there. A friend of mine had one of the Lee shotshell loaders, and in the course of an afternoon watching him load several dozen 12 ga clay bird loads, three primers went off during tapping them in, and he finally started to complain about the sparks they funneled up against his fingers.


AB,

Drawing attached.
 

Attachments

  • 22 lR Shell Holder.pdf
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44 AMP

Staff
Ummm, I'm afraid Isaac Newton would take issue with that. The primer's support surface hammers up with force equal and opposite to that hammering the case down over it.

There are times when physics formula just don't seem to make sense to me. I can see how in a math formula things happen that don't seem to happen in real life.

Perhaps its just in the way we describe things, but I don't see how the primer or its support pushes up when it doesn't move.

Another one that boggled my mind was a physics problem a friend had for homework one time. Swimmer dives in a pool, swims to the far end, turns around, swims back gets out right where they went in.

What you were supposed to do was use the formula and show how the swimmer WENT NOWHERE.

By the math used, the swimmer didn't go anywhere, but I think they did.
 

hounddawg

New member
Been there done that with the Lee Hammer loader. Back in my 20's when I wore blue tights with a big red S on the chest me and a buddy used to sit on his back porch smoking and drinking and loading 38's to shoot at his junk car collection. As the afternoon wore on and the beer cooler started to get empty about one out of twenty primers would pop on us.

His sister was convinced we were both completely insane. When she really got on our nerves we would "pop" a primer on purpose just get her to leave.
 

44 AMP

Staff
the FDA won't admit it, but I think there is Kryptonite in beer. Not much but enough beer can waste even Superman, what else could it be?? :D
 
44 AMP said:
Perhaps its just in the way we describe things, but I don't see how the primer or its support pushes up when it doesn't move.

That's relativity. If you mount a video camera on a ball and push it with your hand, the hand appears to come into the frame and push the ball. If you mount the camera on your hand, the ball appears to come into the frame and push your hand. In an absolute sense, both are equally true. Impacts are mutual and the force is felt equally by both, just in opposite directions. If you think the primer isn't pushed, mount the camera on the punch and watch the rest of the Lee Loader jump up.

A way to look at the situation without changing the frame of reference is to think of your punch pushing down on the case and friction between the primer and the primer pocket pushing down on the primer, exerting that much crushing force on it against the anvil below. But insight into frames of reference is a much more intriguing mind game. When I took physics 101 in college, we were shown this old film that demonstrates the principle effects of various frames of reference. I recommend it.
 

BobCat45

New member
Thank you for that link! Bookmarked!

I remember that movie from freshman physics too, and often wish I could show it to someone, and never in my wildest dreams thought I'd ever see it again. To quote Prof Young's signature, "Life is Good."

Offtopic - my 7th grade Science teacher did a demonstration where she put a little water in a milk bottle, heated it just a little, and put a hard boiled egg on the bottle mouth. When the vapor cooled and contracted the egg popped into the bottle.

She asked the class what had happened and everyone said that the vapor condensed, contracted, and sucked the egg into the bottle. So she agreed that vapor condensation had created a pressure differential, and then asked the class if it would also be correct to state that ambient pressure pushed the egg into the bottle. Same thing, different frame of reference.

When priming the case, either the ram has to push the primer into the pocket, or the case has to push down and envelope the primer - which it can only do if the primer is supported.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Here's another one, my physics teacher froze water by boiling it at room temperature. I saw it happen. kinda cool! :D
 

BobCat45

New member
Ooooh! Pulled a vacuum on it? Made some of it it give up heat of vaporization so the rest froze? That's cool!

I wish I could get back in touch with that 7th grade teacher, to thank her for shaping my life and career. Ya' never know...
 
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