Shannon how sad She could have defended herself

Master Blaster

New member
I thought this was a good illustration of how well the police will protect you when you call them. this was in todays Inquirer. Interesting hoew the cas ewas under a gag order for the last year. And they still have not caught the center city rapist, despite his established pattern of victims (all Penn students), and the excellent description they have of him.

By Craig R. McCoy and Mark Fazlollah
INQUIRER STAFF WRITERS
Two anguished calls to 911 define the strangulation of Shannon Schieber.

"My next-door neighbor, I just heard her yelling for help," a fellow tenant in her Center City apartment building told a police dispatcher the night she was killed. "I just heard her yell help. I knocked on the door and I just heard like a . . . choking-type sound."

Twelve hours later, the same neighbor dialed 911 again, after he and Schieber's brother broke down her door - an action that police chose not to take when they responded to the first 911 call.

"There's a dead person in the apartment next door. . . . I called last night. I heard what I thought was yelling," Parm Greeley said.

His words were captured forever on police 911 tapes and released yesterday as a federal judge made public hundreds of pages of information about Schieber's murder 21/2 years ago.

What Greeley said to police when they responded to his first 911 call - and what police said to him - now stands out as the key issue of a lawsuit filed against the city and the Philadelphia Police Department by Schieber's parents.

The parents contend that the killer was inside, strangling their 23-year-old daughter, when police knocked on her door. They say the police decision against knocking down the door sealed their daughter's fate and left her to die at the hands of the so-called Rittenhouse rapist.

Sylvester and Vicki Schieber, of Chevy Chase, Md., say the police force was poorly trained and often looked for reasons to ignore sex crimes.

The city denies all that. Its lawyers say the two officers who responded that night faced a difficult decision and made the right call based on the facts known to them. The law bars police from knocking down doors without sufficient reason.

As for Greeley, one of the responding officers says he was "wishy-washy." Police say he was equivocal about what he had heard and worried about being embarrassed if police "took the door" and found nothing amiss.

The parents and lawyers for the city have been fiercely litigating the lawsuit for months now, fighting over which witnesses may testify and how much they may say.

Until yesterday, much of the debate was in secret. City lawyers, who were upset after The Inquirer in late 1999 published an article on the case based on a deposition by Police Commissioner John F. Timoney, won a confidentiality pact that sealed virtually every filing in the case. The city contended that letting the case proceed in public might compromise the investigation.

But yesterday, the federal judge in the lawsuit, Norma L. Shapiro, made public a year's worth of legal documents in the case. She did so at the urging of a lawyer for The Inquirer and Philadelphia Daily News.

In all, Shapiro, with one simple order, made public 20 separate legal pleadings, transcripts of 911 tapes, and other evidence - and interviews by homicide detectives and lawsuit lawyers with virtually every key actor in in the drama, including the responding officers, as well as Greeley and other neighbors who gathered in a knot with the police outside Shannon's locked door.

In sum, the documents provide an in-depth look at how police responded to Schieber's killing. DNA evidence later showed that she was among six young women living near Rittenhouse Square who were attacked by the same man. He is still at large.

Of his six victims, Schieber was the only one to fight back.



After midnight on May 7, 1998, Greeley, then 28, was watching television with his girlfriend inside their second-floor apartment on 23d Street, just north of Spruce.

Across the hall lived Schieber, an academic super-achiever who was enrolled at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania.

Greeley, who held a chemistry degree from Columbia University and had just been accepted to medical school, was checking out The Learning Channel, watching specials on Egypt and dinosaurs.

Then, there was a noise.

"We heard a scuffle, and what sounded like a scuffle from Shannon's apartment," Greeley said in a deposition. "I thought it was in Shannon's apartment.

"I heard what sounded like footsteps-type sound, and it sounded like things falling over, maybe."

He though he heard Schieber telling someone to "get away from me."

"I thought it was a domestic dispute of some sort," he said. "She was telling someone to leave her alone basically. . . . It sounded like it could have been physical."

His girlfriend, Leah Basickes, then 25 and also a Penn graduate student, said in a separate deposition that she had thought the sound drifted in from outside.

The couple didn't know Schieber well. Neither intervened.

Basickes went to bed. Greeley continued watching television.

About a half hour later, he heard something anew. This time, it was more unnerving.

" 'Help me,' " Greeley said he heard Schieber scream. Then, he said, her cries ended as if "the air was being choked off."

Greeley, a bear-sized six-footer, immediately left his apartment and stepped across the eight-foot hall separating his apartment from Schieber's.

"Shannon, are you OK?" Greeley asked, knocking on the door, barefoot, in shorts and a pink T-shirt. No answer. He tried the door handle, but it was locked.

Greeley woke up his girlfriend and told her to call police.

Then he stepped back across the hall and again banged on Schieber's door.

"Shannon, Shannon. Are you all right?" he shouted.

He added later: "I was worried. I thought, I got to get this door down or something."

At the same time, he was afraid: "I thought if there's someone in there with a knife or something, what am I going to do."

Then he went back and asked Basickes if she'd called the police. She hadn't.

At 2:04 a.m, Greeley dialed 911.

Within seconds of getting the call, police-radio dispatchers alerted all patrol cars in Center City's Ninth Police District: "It's a report of a female screaming, 251 South 23d. It's coming from the second-floor apartment, front."

In separate cars, Police Officers Raymond Scherff and Steven Woods, who both joined the force in late 1995, began heading toward 23d Street. Both were some distance away, on the edge of the big district.

While awaiting police, Greeley raced downstairs, in hopes of getting help from a man who lived in the first-floor apartment.

The man wasn't in, but his roommate, Amy Reed, then 25 and a Penn doctoral candidate in immunology, joined Greeley in the hallway.

In her deposition, Reed said she, too, had heard "some commotion" some time earlier, evidently at the same time Greeley and his girlfriend first heard the noises.

Reed said the noise "sounded as if something had toppled over, perhaps books or something relatively heavy." Not unduly disturbed by the sound, she had gone to sleep.

Greeley raced back upstairs, alone. He pounded the door a third time.

"Shannon, Shannon. Are you OK?" he again asked outside her door.

"I called the police," he added.

Seven minutes after Greeley's 911 call, Scherff pulled up outside Schieber's apartment, with Woods right behind.

Reed and Greeley were waiting outside. At the curb, Greeley said, he told the police that he had heard his neighbor cry for help, followed by a "choked-off sound."

All four headed upstairs and clustered outside Schieber's door.

The officers told the neighbors to step back from the door. Using their hands and nightsticks, the police pounded on the entrance.

"Police," they yelled. "Come out."

Again, silence.

Another neighbor, Christen Ritter, then a 25-year-old Penn graduate with degrees in chemistry and history, joined the crowd. Alerted by police banging on the door, he came down from his third-floor apartment.

At this point, a crucial discussion took place. Greeley equivocated. Police backed off.

In his deposition, Greeley acknowledged that he told the officers that he was uncertain about whether the cries had come from Schieber's apartment.

Moreover, he told police: "I'll be embarrassed if you break down the door and nothing has happened."

"It was my ego on the line," he explained later.

Reed, the downstairs neighbor woken up by Greeley, said in a separate deposition that it was the police who first raised the issue of Greeley's possible embarrassment.

"I believe they asked him how he would feel if they knocked down the door and nothing was happening," she testified.

Ritter, the upstairs neighbor, said the police decision not to break down Schieber's door appeared correct at the time.

"The police officers did what was reasonable, given the circumstances they encountered," he said. "There was nothing apparently wrong."

In their depositions, Officers Scherff and Woods pointed to Greeley's uncertainty in discussing why they did not break into the apartment.

Had Greeley been firm about the origin of the cry, Woods said, that would have enough for the two officers to call a police supervisor to the apartment for guidance.

"From what I can recall," Woods said, "he wasn't sure whether the scream had come from inside the apartment or not."

Scherff was even more emphatic.

"If he said for sure it was coming from the apartment, you know, I'll take the door," Scherff said. "I would have taken the door without hesitation."

Summing up, Scherff characterized Greeley as "a wishy-washy type of guy."

Before departing the scene, the police inspected the outside of the apartment and saw no evidence of a break-in.

As they left, Woods said, he told Greeley, "If he heard anything else, we would come back and investigate it."

Five minutes after their logged arrival time, the officers called dispatchers to report they were leaving the scene.

Scherff told a dispatcher that the original 911 complaint had not, in fact, turned up a crime.

"Yeah," he said, according to the transcript released yesterday, "that's gonna be unfounded."

Twelve hours later, that changed.

Schieber's brother, Sean, rang the bell on Greeley's door.

His sister had failed to show up for a lunch date they had set. Did Greeley know where she was?

In response, Greeley poured out his story from the previous night. "I was in shock at this point and just sort of started saying, come with me, and telling him what happened," Greeley recalled.

Without hesitation, the two broke open Schieber's door. As soon as they entered, they saw her naked body on the bed.

Sean Schieber managed perhaps two steps inside. He collapsed.

"I essentially put my head down," Sean Schieber said later. "I didn't want to see. You know, it's one of those moments where you think you are dreaming, and you think if you close your eyes, you can go back to your state of dreaming. And what you see is not happening."

Greeley crossed the hallway to his apartment. Once more, he called 911.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Had Greeley been firm about the origin of the cry, Woods said, that would have enough for the two officers to call a police supervisor to the apartment for guidance.

In truth, it probably didn't matter one bit whether those LEO's broke down the door or not at that point. Shannon's tragic fate was probably sealed when she decided to be a deliberately unarmed person ('DUP'), and she had the misfortune to run into this particular BG.

For lurkers on this site, we who participate on TFL find it incomprehensible that women like Shannon are fooled into believing they are too stupid, too uncoordinated and too timid to defend their own lives. We feel it is immoral to deny them the ability to defend themselves. We find it outrageous that our society continues to lull women and innocent others into a false sense of security by encouraging them to rely only upon calling 911.

How many Shannon's must die before we help women learn First Defense (like first aid ...), so they can defend themselves until the professionals arrive?

Let's help women learn and practice realistic self defense. Even if it saves only one life, it's worth it.

Regards from AZ
 

bestdefense357

New member
Great post, and a great reply from Jeff. Two years ago, a co-ed at the University of North Carolina-Charlotte was attacked by a serial rapist (DNA later confirmed at four rapes). She kept a gun in her nightstand, got it out and killed the guy. Too bad Shannon wasn't armed. Robert

http://www.ocala4sale.com/bestdefense
 

Ledbetter

New member
Great posts. I agree BUT

Since the gun-banners enjoy dancing in the blood of gun victims so much (you know what I mean), I think we can rise above their level by being as respectful as possible to the families of individuals who could have saved themselves from murder had they been armed.

Although it advances our cause to increase public awareness of the consequences of a choice to be defenseless, we should try to do so in a way that doesn't impinge on family privacy or underplay the role of the criminal. Care should be taken not to place blame on the victim.

Regards,

Ledbetter
 

John/az2

New member
I agree with Ledbetter.

The victim made the choice (as far as we know), and that is truly what we are here to defend, the ability to make the choice of defense or not.

Like has been said elsewhere and often, "I may not like what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it."

The variation: "I may not like the fact that you have chosen to not to defend yourself, but I'll defend your right to make that choice."
 

Dave R

New member
For Women & Children

"If it only saves one life, its worth it". That's why we should have a national CCW law, or some other law that guarantees citizens the right to defend themselves.

We should do it for the Women and Children.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Hmmm ...

I meant no disrespect.

I've reread my post, and I'm surprised if Ledbetter felt I placed too much blame upon the victim. Certainly, I did place some blame upon her, since she apparently made the moral choice to remain defenseless. And, she was probably heavily encouraged to do so by local laws, and by exaggerated expectations of security.

My words are not meant to bring more pain to the family, or to disrespect their loss. However, I feel it is critical to help people stop and consider the reality of these situations. Innocent, naive people are encouraged to believe that LEO's will arrive to save the day. They believe that these violent acts always happen to other people.

I suppose I feel strongly about this because I too was overly confident about LEO protection. I live in a neighborhood made up of such people, and most of the folks I work with assume that LEO's will be there to stop the BG's, day or night.

At some point, and in some way (I'm open to suggestions ...) we must help our friends and neighbors to stop and consider the reality of violent crime. It is unexpected and sudden. It is brutal. It is more likely at certain times, and in certain areas, but still ... it can strike in the most unlikely locations. And, the people who perpetrate these crimes are willing to act like animals. I know of no way to help defend innocent life, and help protect our own fundamental right to do so, then to point out these realities from time to time.

With respect, certainly. Hopefully, with some diplomacy as well. But still ... the message must strike home, no?

Regards from AZ
 

cobraman

New member
Shannon is my girlfriend's name

Many of you may remember my first trip to the range with her story a few months ago. This will not happen to my girl.
This is tragic but I have some questions.
What the heck difference does it make what degrees the neighbors held?
 

Amelia

New member
This story made me physically sick

"If he said for sure it was coming from the apartment, you know, I'll take the door," Scherff said. "I would have taken the door without hesitation."

Summing up, Scherff characterized Greeley as "a wishy-washy type of guy."

Yes, she probably could have saved her own life if she'd been armed (and trained). It's clear and I don't think we need to rant on the victim any more than that.

That having been said, I am still _appalled_ (please give me another word for that, that is strong enough for what I'm feeling!) at the insinuation that we women who live alone need to be sure to pick neighbors who aren't "wishy-washy" so that when we yell HELP ME they will actually investigate until they find out FOR SURE if we are ok or not.

In summary,
1) I'm glad I'm learning to shoot and defend myself. The sooner I get that first handgun, the better.
2) Shannon, may God rest her soul, had sorry excuses for neighbors.
3) Those officers are not acquitted of their responsibility because of the personality or lack of convincingness of the neighbor. He was sure he heard HELP wasn't he? Then, let's find out where it came from... Can there be that many apartments within hearing distance of his? Further immediate action could have saved Shannon or at least caught the BG.
4) I thank God for my nosy neighbors who know me well enough to have the door kicked in even if there's a chance it's a waste of time. I value my life more than the carpenter's bill.

I am not an LEO, so please don't jump on me for my suggested police tactics.

I am a woman who has often lived alone, though. I can imagine myself in Shannon's situation quite easily. Even if I have a gun, the possibility that I have been overpowered by the BG is still there. In which case, I want my neighbors to knock down the darn door!

Scherff, Woods and Greeley will have daughters some day... I hope they care enough to have the door knocked in for them.

- end of rant -
 

Payette Jack

New member
"At the same time, he was afraid:"I thought if there's someone in there with a knife"

This might be a good time to drag out that "Nation of Cowards" essay. Time for Americans to grow a collective pair. A criminal lifestyle ought to be a short ticket to grave bodily injury. Steal a wallet, get your arm broke, snatch a purse and there ought to be someone there to give you a size 10 1/2 where the sun don't shine. This is ridiculous that we put up with this crap.

I once had a pretty good rant posted entitled "Are we violent enough?" that summed it up pretty well. WE as a society are too tolerant, too lenient and way too squeemish about violence. We need to promote violence, channel it appropriately and apply it when necessary.
 

HankL

New member
Amelia, First let me welcome you to TFL and then let me ask you one question. How many times have we all become angry with our nosy but well meaning neighbors? A very large problem we have today is that many people are not willing to take personal responsibility for their own actions or their own lives. It is a horrific thing that happened to Shannon and there are quite a few "If's" in the equation.
The bottom line is that you can't depend on the police or your nosy neighbors. You must depend on yourself
Seems to me that you are working on that. I'm still not too fired up about the Inquirer as a news source though.
Best to All
 

Ledbetter

New member
I wasn't talking about anybody's post in particular

Like I said, I agree with the posts. Although the title of the thread could be considered disrespectful, it's really no big deal to me. If Dennis Olson is right, no handguns in the City of Brotherly Love anyway, she couldn't have legally chosen a handgun for defense. That's the bigger tragedy.

I'm just making a separate point that, having the moral high ground in this matter, we should distinguish ourselves from our slimeball foes whenever we can.

Amelia, we're all glad you're learning to shoot too. The sooner you get that (first) handgun the better. TFL is the right place to start learning about self-defense. The first thing is to learn how much you don't know.

Regards to all.
 

Jeff Thomas

New member
Ledbetter, sorry if I overreacted.

Amelia, I understand, and am glad you are doing your best, as we all do, to take responsibility for your security. Please take a glance at http://www.mothersarms.org . Consider joining with them to help other women understand the truth of this debate.

Some of us, including me, have become passionately frustrated with most women on the issue of the RKBA. As a group, large numbers of women have fallen for the rhetoric of the anti-self defense gun bigots. When, ironically, women and the elderly are two good examples of groups that need firearms even more than men. If all guns could be made to disappear today, women would be at an incredible disadvantage when they faced violent men.

The average woman would bristle at the idea that she is incompetent to drive a car. It is a tragedy that so many women accept the same flawed logic regarding their ability to learn to effectively use a firearm for their personal security.

Amelia, welcome to TFL. Take care, and best wishes in your training. Regards from AZ
 

Master Blaster

New member
handguns are legal in the city of philadelphia, you can have
one in your home for protection without any permit.
CCW requires a permit, and they are readily issued.
 

Amelia

New member
the IFs and responsibilities

I don't know why it occurs to me... just _one_ person in this scenario taking some responsibility... [Shannon learning to defend herself, her neighbor caring enough to *do* something, the cops taking some action and not writing her/the call off...] any one of these might have drastically changed the outcome of this story. I guess those are the "ifs"...

I'm working on the self defense part.

I've had a long talk my neighbor about his/my responsibilities if something appears amiss and about the fact that doors, for example, are easily replaced.

I don't suppose I can do much to affect the police.

Thanks for your encouragement Hank, Ledbetter, and Jeff. I recently completed one two day handgun course and will take another in the next couple of months. Of course, the training just emphasizes that I don't know much of anything... but now at least I know > zero. Progress is being made. Hopefully, I will be taking the next class with my own handgun. I know what handgun I want, and getting it is my biggest things-to-do-before the end of the year priority.
 

GI Joe

New member
Pro and anti-gunners can trade statistics back and forth until the probervial cows come home, but when all is said and done it comes down to this. When you're awakened at 2 AM to the sounds of a broken window or door and then see an intruder in your home. You are staring into the eyes of death. You realize there and then, that this person cannot be bargained with. He/she cannot be rehabilitated or reasoned with. It is just you and him/her. Tell me, would you rather dial 911, and wait? Or do you want the firearm of your choice at your side, knowing that you are not at the total mercy of this invader who most likely is totally devoid of it?

I am not saying that a gun guarantees your safety or protection or that you will never be a victim. But in a possible life or death struggle, I prefer to have as much say to the outcome as possible rather than wait for the police and hope they arrive before it is too late.
 

jthuang

New member
FWIW, as Master Blaster said, handguns are legal in Philadelphia. Prior to 1995 Philadelphia had all kinds of dumb gun laws (aside from the rest of the state) but Act 17 preempted all those laws. I seem to recall some REALLY dumb laws prior to Act 17 in Philadelphia (not that all gun laws aren't dumb anyway) like a six round maximum capacity.

I think it's Chicago that has a blanket prohibition on handguns.

Justin
 
Top