Semi-autos, a rant and request

[PJR]

Those who frequent THR might recall I've posted on this subject in the past but with the resurrection of TFL, I thought I'd get the message out again.

Semi autos have a lot going for them when it comes to clay shooting. Light on recoil, lower in cost than o/us of comparable quality and reliable if kept clean and used with the right ammunition. I've owned two semis in the past and would own another.

The problem is barrel control. I frequently see barrels pointed at people as shooters carry semi-autos around the shooting club. They are usually carrying the gun by the receiver with the barrel parallel to the ground and because their hand covers the ejection port it is very hard to see whether the action is open. I know the gun is probably empty and safe but I can't see it unlike with a breaking gun where you can see from a distance that it is open. Even with a pump gun you can see that the foreend is pulled back, not so with a semi.

The inability of one shooter to get this message cost me a friendship. He was forever crossing people with his semi and after the third time he did it to me despite repeated warnings I refused to shoot with him again. He compounded his error by offering BS excuses in response to the warnings.

This is not to say that gas guns are unsafe or that unsafe practices don't happen with breaking guns. I've seen o/u owners lift their closed gun from the rack, sweep an entire squad and then open the gun. (Breaking guns should be opened with the barrels pointed in a safe direction immediately upon being picked up.) The most conscientous shooter I know uses a gas gun but that is the point. You need to be more attentive to barrel control with a semi because it's harder to see that the gun is safe.

So if you are shooting a semi, please give some consideration to your fellow shooters and keep the barrels in a safe direction. You might know it's safe but it's hard for the rest of us to see the action is open.

Paul

 

[K80Geoff]

Good post!

In the same vein, my pet peeve is shooters with O/U's who carry the guns with the barrels slung over the shoulder. I have a rather obvious ding on the rib of my K80 from one such encounter. Swinging all that metal behind you where you can't see and control the muzzle is downright dangerous, both to other folks and to you if you ding somebody's new Perazzi.

It also violates one of the cardinal rules of safe gun handling, control of the the muzzle. Or don't let the barrel point at anything you do not intend to shoot, even if it is empty and broken open.

I have noticed clays shooers holding their guns by the barrel and placing the stock on their shoulder. This keeps the barrel pointed at the ground and the chamber visible for everyone to see.

 

[Citori]

John Kruger once told me that a breaking gun should be slung over the shoulder barrel forward. That way you can always see where your barrel is pointed.

A courtesy thing I suppose, but good one.

 

[Cowdogpete]

I realize you were discussing shotguns, but how do you react to rifles? It is often difficult to see the action on them as well.

Those that practice perfect muzzle awareness will eventually cover someone, it happens. Ever been covered with the muzzle of a cased gun? How did you know? How do you know it wasn't loaded?

Perhaps I am less concerned than you, or you make a bigger deal (is that redundant?) than me over the issue.

Smoke

 

[K80Geoff]

We are dealing here with shooters on a sporting clays course. Where a large number of shooters are moving from one stand to another or waiting their turn in the box.Everyone carrying their gun with them.

Bear in mind shotgunners do not use safeties, in fact safeties are usually disabled on competition shotguns. We are not on a rifle range with it's organization and firing line.

First rule on the course is "Open or out". A rule that means you should show the other shooters and workers on the course that your gun is safe by displaying an open chamber.

What PJR alluded to is a shooter holding his auto with his hand over the chamber, thus not showing an unloaded chamber. Bad Juju and often it will get you thrown off the course if you continue.

People get swept all the time (inadvertantly) but the open chamber rule insures there are no "Unloaded gun" boo boos.

 

[grimel]

For break open guns I was taught to break it open and place the stock under your arm with the barrel(s) over the forearm.

 

[PJR]

Perhaps I am less concerned than you, or you make a bigger deal (is that redundant?) than me over the issue.

I guess you are and I guess I do. If having any firearm pointed at you when you can't tell if it is safe doesn't cause you any concern then clearly you are less concerned about your safety than I am about mine.

Smoke, is this the attitude you take into the field or onto the course? If you happen to cross someone with your muzzle, it's no no big deal?

Paul

 

[JNewell]

If having any firearm pointed at you when you can't tell if it is safe​

Geez, dunno about you all, but I don't like being covered by even a "safe" firearm...specifically including even open doubles. Call me finicky if you wish, I do not like it.

 

[P95Carry]

Paul ..... I do agree. Was at a shoot Saturday ... and one or two autos were not being properly dealt with ..... muzzles were ''sort off'' pointed at ground but ..... critical time tends to be when squad has finshed and shooter walks in to club house ..... that muzzle is still barely safe.

To some, concern over muzzle sweep is regarded as paranoia. I don't think it should be. In a sense, with firearms you cannot be TOO safe .. we only have to remember that whatever projectile or projectiles leave a gun ... there ain't no callin em back!

 

[texastactical]

I think you are missing the point. The point is not wether the gun is "safe" or not. It is the lack of muzzle discipline.

1. ALL guns are always loaded. This means treat every gun as if it were loaded.

2. NEVER let your muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Never means never.

These people are violating both of these rules.

 

[JNewell]

There's a thread on this in the AF/CQC area, in which the opinion "seems" to be that its ok to let muzzles cover parts, people, things as long as there is no intent.​

Omigosh. Tell it to the family...tell it to the judge and jury. It is never OK, and the reasons are obvious.

The thing that kinda amazes me is folks who stand around with the muzzle on their own toes. *ouch* The only thing we can say is that at least in the age of antibiotics it isn't likely to be fatal. Hmmm...

 

[Gabe Suarez]

Gentlemen,

If you read the actual article instead of simply skimming through it and electing to disagree based on the writer, we point out that in real gunfights sometimes muzzles cover people and things.

We also point out that unless you are wearing a ceremonial holster that sticks out like a sore thumb, you will cover your leg every single time you draw and holster. Finally, that if you are seated inside a car and attacked (with no other option or recourse), you will draw to the threat and not take a round about route to keep from covering your legs. Reality or Square Range Shooting School Doctrine.


If anyone would like a copy, I'd be happy to send it.

Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com

 

[dfaugh]

Imho

Shotgun, Rifle, handgun...On the range or in the field or in the gun shop...Point it UP, Point it DOWN or Point it at the TARGET WHEN READY TO SHOOT (and anything but the target is safely behind you). Or you don't ever shoot with me again! This includes cased guns, too.

Yes, it may sound paranoid, but I know of FAR to many "accidental" shootings with "unloaded" or "safe" guns.

 

[gifted]

Sometimes you just can't, like those times mentioned by Gabe. But that makes no excuse for when you do screw up. Like they pounded into my head in BMT, there are no excuses. There are reasons, "I forgot" or something like that, that people try to pass off as excuses.

I don't care if I'm the one you're fussing at(*knocks on wood*), you'll never offend me by too much safety talk. You can't have enough of that.

 

[Gewehr98]

Regarding the ejection port covered with the owner's hand...

In sanctioned High Power rifle matches, we use chamber flags, which insert a section of plastic into the chamber and rifling, and show a bright yellow flag through the open action, be it a bolt gun, autoloader, etc. If knowing that the chamber on a shotgun is empty takes such precedence to this thread's author, why not start a movement to incorporate some sort of chamber flag for non-break autoloading shotguns?

Muzzle discipline is an entirely different thing, however.