Seecamp theories

BlueTrain

New member
The recent post about a Seecamp prompted me to go to their (or his) website and read a few things. While I didn't read anything on the forum, the FAQs were interesting. He clearly has his own ideas about a defensive handgun. That's reflected in his product, although it is possible a larger pistol might have slightly different features. We'll probably never know. But the whole thing brought up two questions in my mind.

I was wondering how many people go along with his concept of personal defense, which is that (for civilians) encounters will be very close and that point shooting is best. He even goes so far as to claim that most police encounters are pretty much the same, at least in large cities. I completely understand what he is saying and that it is in line with some other writers old and new on the subject. I'm not sure it is even close to the Jeff Cooper theory of gunfighting.

His pistols are especially small and either intended for backup or as an easily concealed carry pistol for those who think a Colt .45 to be a little too large. I imagine he has his hands full producing all he cares to sell, rather like some custom holster makers. At one time there was a vogue for highly customized carry guns, cut down from regular production guns. I'm thinking here of the S&W Model 39 that was heavily modified along the lines of Seecamp's theory of self-defense but some Browning HPs were similiarly modified. I guess there were already production revolvers that incorporated all those features. But I was wondering if there were anything today, in larger calibers, that incorporated most of what he was thinking, in case you didn't like small calibers and small guns and thought something a little larger might be easy enough to conceal. The smallest Glocks come to mind but they aren't works of art by my (not very high) standards and they're a little blocky. The old pre-war Colt .32s and .380s were almost unique and there's been nothing like them since but they're still small calibers. I don't read the magazines like I used to, so I'm sure there are dozens of new guns I've never heard of but do any of them seem like they would be particularly adaptable to Seecamps way of thinking, in so far as he is different? You can buy a sporting rifle without sights but I guess it is essential for a handgun.
 

PSP

New member
I was wondering how many people go along with his concept of personal defense...

I can find no flaw in his concept. It reflects stark reality. The purposes for which the guns are produced are as a close in defense weapon, or as a back-up and not much else. The original design was created at the request of LEOs for a small, reliable back-up.

I'm not sure it is even close to the Jeff Cooper theory of gunfighting.

It is Cooper's theories that I have some problems with. I do not feel they always reflect the reality of civilian defensive use of a handgun. His bent is more towards a LEO, rather than the average civilian.
 

BlueTrain

New member
I don't wish to say anything negative about Cooper but I think his practices originated with competitive shooting games. They evolved, to be sure, and I'm not overly familiar with many of them but I'm sure he had no use for little guns.

I keep wondering what a bigger Seecamp might be. Didn't he have something to do with modifying Colt automatics to double action?
 

CWKahrFan

New member
The Colt New Agent .45 has no raised sights... has a very minimal sighting channel. The Ruger LCP (500,000+ sold) has very minimal sights. Both are clearly designed for short-distance SD.
 

PSP

New member
Didn't he have something to do with modifying Colt automatics to double action?

Yes, prior to getting into the pocket gun business, the Seecamps modified 1911s to double action.

I keep wondering what a bigger Seecamp might be.

The rumor mill is rife with the speculation that Seecamp is going to unveil a new, larger caliber pistol soon. ;):rolleyes::cool::D
 

zombieslayer

New member
Well- there is also the Rohrbaugh. They offer optional sights, but almost all I've seen have none. I'm finally going to buy myself one this coming year.
 

jwalker497

New member
In all likelihood god forbid you had to use it, whose goona have the time and the were-with-all to aim?? It's going to be **** in your pants and pull the trigger. For any carry gun, I don't see a need to have sights. Granted, it's nice to have them so we can shoot more acuratley at the range but real defensive practice wold be pull and shoot, no aiming. I doubt anyone would even think about aiming. So I agree with the concept.
 

Wildalaska

Moderator
My contention is that ABSENT SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES, all the armed citizen needs is a pocket pistol, of which the Seecamp is the ultimate.

I further contend that the mere fact of use of a pocket pistol in a defensive shooting scenario can be a aid to the armed citizen and not a hinderance in the post shoot legal contretemps.

WildoknowpleasedonttakemywalletAlaska ™©2002-2010
 

BlueTrain

New member
I looked over Colt's website, which doesn't tell you much, frankly, but they have a couple of nice models. It must be difficult to get past the idea of having no sights on a handgun.

I agree that the Seecamp is probably a perfect pocket pistol, if you think one is that useful. A basic problem with guns and people of limited means is striking a balance between cost and all-round suitablity for everything you think you might need it for. If you spend a lot of time in the woods, for example, you probably would think of something else first. As usual, it boils down to trying to pick something that is the biggest thing you can manage to conceal, assuming concealment is a requirement and it nearly always is. Judging from what people say here, a Colt .45 auto is neither too big nor too heavy for a single gun choice. I have a Ruger .45 auto and it is nearly perfect, but my 9mm is smaller in every dimension (barely).

I think I've only see one Seecamp in a gun shop but it didn't captivate my attention at the time.
 

Kreyzhorse

New member
I was wondering how many people go along with his concept of personal defense, which is that (for civilians) encounters will be very close and that point shooting is best.

I completely agree with this. I really can't imagine a SD situation where I'm going to fire, or be fired upon, any further away than 7 yards.
 

jimbob86

Moderator
It is Cooper's theories that I have some problems with. I do not feel they always reflect the reality of civilian defensive use of a handgun. His bent is more towards a LEO, rather than the average civilian.


It's the idea that police are not civilians that I have a problem with:

"The Police are the Public and the Public are the Police. -Sir Robert Peel

Down that road (Police are not Civilians) lies the idea that one group should be allowed to decide what another group should "need"..... or if they need anything at all. Need's got nothing to do with it.

I think "point shooting" is poor idea, as it violates Rule 3 (Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.") You are responsible for every shot you take- pointing in the general direction and letting fly is ..... unwise, IMO. YMMV.

The idea that "civilians" should have inferior handguns (inaccurate and firing feeble cartridges- even considering that handgun cartridges are weak to begin with- really irks me.
 
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BlueTrain

New member
I agree with your comments about the police, in the way they don't seem to regard themselves as civilians. But ordinary citizens are not the police, either. Generally speaking, the police don't get involved in making decisions about what people can have or can't have, even if they sometimes act like it. Ultimately elected officials make those decisions largely based on their perceptions of what the public, sometimes defined as a group, wants. The group that shouts the loudest sometimes gets their way. That's not exactly democracy in a pure sense but it often works out that way.

That's a basic problem with a democracy, in that the majority is supposed to rule. Naturally, there's a lot of people who think that just because they didn't vote for someone that won, the whole idea stinks. Rather like how we will soon have a new speaker of the house who apparently thinks he is now the president of the United States. Anyway, all other political systems pretty much work the same way, too. The only difference is in who gets to vote. Just think, in a democracy you can vote to have a man put to death.

I don't think point shooting is a bad idea. If a person couldn't hit a man sized target from across a room, well, I just don't know what to say. And who said civilians should have inferior guns? Some people say the army has inferior guns.
 

HorseSoldier

New member
I don't wish to say anything negative about Cooper but I think his practices originated with competitive shooting games. They evolved, to be sure, and I'm not overly familiar with many of them but I'm sure he had no use for little guns.

Learning to question Cooper is an important development for any serious student/practitioner of gunfighting. His contribution to the field is very important and the man deserves much respect, but his theories have some big flaws when applied in the real world. Current state of the art addresses a lot of the problems and omissions in his ideas.

I was wondering how many people go along with his concept of personal defense, which is that (for civilians) encounters will be very close and that point shooting is best. He even goes so far as to claim that most police encounters are pretty much the same, at least in large cities.

I certainly do. As a civilian with a handgun, if you're planning to survive a deadly force encounter by flawlessly executing an El Pres from a textbook perfect Weaver stance you are training to die. The odds are much better that your life and death fight will start when the bad guy cold cocks you or pulls a knife way, way inside the 21' foot or 30' rule.

For LEO involved shootings, you can find stats from various published studies the document lots of shootings occur at very close ranges. The fact that around 10% of officers killed by bad guys are killed with their own weapons should be a pretty big red flag that a lot of deadly force encounters start or end at punching range (although as an LEO you have the complication of taking somebody into custody that a civilian doesn't have).
 

spacecoast

New member
For any carry gun, I don't see a need to have sights.

I totally agree, but there are a lot of folks who like to think that night sights and lasers and red dots and octagons are going to help them in a SD situation. To each his/her own, and hopefully the sights issue doesn't slow you down when you need to be fast. Whether or not you have sights, my advice is to practice point shooting to the extent that you can hit COM one-handed inside 20 feet without raising your gun up to eye level, because you might have to someday.
 

BlueTrain

New member
I don't there's any point in removing the sights from a handgun if they're already there but you can hit pretty well and fast, too, without using them, even at 25 yards. However, at that range, you could probably "get away with" using them without penalty. I think most of the custom modified guns I referred to earlier generally retained some form of sight.

I got to handle a pistol with nightsights once (had to find a dark place to see them). The thing with nightsights is actually seeing the target. But that's another discussion.

While no doubt point shooting is a little controversial, there is also the question of what constitutes point shooting. Some older writers clearly illustrate their idea of point shooting as something some have called "shoulder pointing," not meaning pointing with the shoulder but rather pointing at shoulder level. There's also variations in how the body is facing, too. I somehow doubt, however, if I would ever stand straight up to shoot at something that was about to shoot back. I even find myself going into a slight crouch when I'm practicing a draw, probably for a different reason.

Did you know that Cooper even wanted a magazine cut-off on his scout rifle?
 

hhb

New member
Police shootings

Older studies revealed that most police shootings nationwide took place on friday night, in a darkened room, at a distance less than 20 feet, with the officer firing 3 to 5 rounds. The only real difference between police and the public is that the police can serve warrants, non LEO's can't.
 

spacecoast

New member
there is also the question of what constitutes point shooting

My instructor explained is as "Orient your hand on the gun so that your extended outstretched trigger finger is pointing at the target and laying alongside the barrel. If you learn to maintain this orientation of your hand on the gun while you pull the trigger, you will be able to hit a human-sized adversary COM if it relatively close." In short, if you can point at it the way you might point out a landmark to a friend, you should be able to shoot it.

Note that the most comfortable pointing position for most people is with the thumb rotated 30-45 degrees CCW of vertical, a position not used very often by folks who use their sights to shoot. The gun doesn't care.
 
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