Securing Firearms from Depressed Family Member

[Dreaming100Straight]

We will be caring for a fairly seriously depressed adult family relation in our home for the forseeable future and I am concerned that they may harm themselves if I continue to keep an unsecured night stand gun and a 12 gauge pump in my bedroom. I am not concerned about state laws but the person's safety.

The nightstand gun cannot be fired in either DA or SA unless a mag is fully inserted with one in the chamber. I may pick up a pistol vault but for now I am leaving one in the chamber and hiding all the magazines, loaded and unloaded, where I can access them fairly quickly but the person in question is not likely to find them unless they really go looking for them. If they are so determined to harm themselves, I doubt that locking up the guns will stop them and I don't think they are so determined. I just don't want to permit easy access in case they have a sudden emotional crisis.

I had been keeping the pump on hooks hanging out of sight beneath the bed, with the mag full and one in the chamber, with the safety on. I have taken the round out of the chamber and attached the factory trigger lock. The reason for removing the one in the chamber is that the trigger can be accidentally pulled while removing the lock. The key is in a separate location near the bed and the disturbed person has no idea what it looks like.

I have been thinking of getting a gun vault for the night stand gun, but am concerned that if ever needed I may not be able to locate a key and any kind of combination or biometric lock may fail.

Does this sound like a good plan? Not taking the family member in is out of the question.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

You cannot trust any physical measure if the person can get at the gun. You cannot trust that they will not figure out how the gun works or find a key.

Thus, the gun must be locked up and I suggest something not activated by a key which might be found and figured out. Electronic or physical combo locks. I know you worry about failure but the mechanical ones probably won't.

Saying that a person will not know where to look is too risky. It's famous last words.

I commend you for helping but access that allows the gun to be made usable by finding this or that is risky.

Which is the worst risk - a home invasion or a depressed person looking for a gun? Worrying about the first - might up the home security precautions to give you time to get to a gun. Also, when awake, carry one.

Restricting access to dangerous substances (drugs, chemicals), knives and tools should be given some thought.

I hope that those involved have accessed appropriate mental health resources.

 

[Koda94]

total 100% keyless lock up is the only way you will be able to prevent them from gaining access while maintaining quick access yourself should you need to. This person is an adult and intelligent, don’t think for a minute they cannot figure out where your hidden key or hidden magazines are. I don’t think I have ever heard of a case where a biometric or electronic lock has failed I wouldn’t worry about that.

 

[rickyrick]

I actually dealt with this once, almost too late. But afterwards I removed all firearms from my home and stored them at a trusted friend's house.

 

[kilimanjaro]

A depressed person is not incapable of locating and activating a firearm. They are far more capable than a five-year old and we worry about them having access a great deal.

Anything not locked up securely, as in a safe, should be carried on your person. Do not leave it 'unattended' with the individual in the house.

Does this person have their own key to the house? They can enter at any time and find your firearms.

Lastly, review your insurance. You will be in severe and certain liability if he decides to shoot the firearm at more than just himself.

RickyRick has the right approach. Sad to say, pathological altruism is putting you, your family, and neighbors at risk. Clinical depression is not 'the mopes' and melancholy, it's a serious mental state.

I hope your loved one gets better. Many do.

 

[dakota.potts]

This is my two cents, so take it as such.

You are worrying about two competing things: The loss of life due to an action caused by mental illness, and the loss of life (or property) due to home invasion. Statistically speaking, suicide related to mental illness is far more likely to happen and, being that this seems to be a temporary situation, should be your primary concern.

I would lock all of the guns and ammunition completely away. If you use a portable handgun safe, bolt it down or otherwise secure it. I would use all combination or perhaps biometric locks. If you use keys, don't leave a spare key anywhere.

The sad reality of suicide is that someone desperate enough will find a way. I know this from a sad experience of a friend in high school. However, firearms are more likely to be effective and are easy to use. You certainly don't want to leave any possibility of access to them, and to me it sounds like the risks of leaving them available for use in personal protection are greater than taking proper measures to secure them completely for the time being.

Best of luck in your situation. I understand what mental illness struggles are like, and dealing with them in loved ones, but am lucky that I have never been in such a difficult situation. I hope the best for all involved.

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

Thanks. I think you are all correct about what I have so far done being inadequate. I don't think they would harm themselves, but I don't want to take the risk. For the night stand gun, I will go with a mechanical combination and will also look at a gun safe.

As for Glenn's suggestion about sharps and chemicals, there isn't much if anything I can do other than not to leave things in plain sight and possibly suggest "bad thoughts" to them. I also believe that Glenn has some professional expertise in the area.

Yes, they have professional care and have been treated for most of their life for a chronic condition that all too many suffer from, of whom many cannot get or for some reason do not get care (my son is half way through med school and has been very concerned about guns in the house not being the cause of suicide, but making it too easy and thereby arguably increasing the suicide rate.

As for intelligence, they are extremely intelligent and you are right that they could find the key(s).

They have their own key to the house. Reviewing my insurance is a good idea, especially as I dropped the umbrella coverage. I was already considering increasing my coverage as I am applying for a LTC (in my state of CA it is difficult to get one).

It looks like time to get a safe for when I am not home. In fact, I guess I should keep them in the safe with the exception of the night stand gun and that should be in the safe except when it is time to retire. Then it goes in the handgun vault kept in the night stand, but back in the safe the next morning.

As for the risks. I live in a good area where the likelihood of encountering violent crime is pretty slim and law enforcement response time is pretty good. Hence the need for a ready to go defense gun isn't as great as it is for many. However based on what I have seen over the years the person is deteriorating and I see the risk of terrible harm befalling them as far outweighing the risk of becoming a crime victim.


Thanks. Some of you have had experience with a suicide or a near suicide. I went through it years ago with an immediate family member and know what a serious problem it is.

 

[johnwilliamson062]

What are the push button mechanical combination locks called?
I believe those are the best as far as reliability and quick access.
They are not cheap though.
In your situation I would not leave anything unlocked. More dangerous than with children IMO. The key to the shotgun could go in the pistol safe.

 

[MurBob]

Remove the firing pins?

Buy a Fas1 gun safe for the bedroom.. remove the firing pins from the rest.

A large gun safe is probably the best idea but also one of the most expensive.

 

[NateKirk]

I agree with what some others have said, unless your neighborhood is really bad, the chance of your house being broken into are lower than a depressed person committing suicide with a found gun. Depending on how long they were staying I would consider getting a small storage locker for a few months and just keep a bat next to the bed. I believe my brother rented one for something like $38 a month when he went to Afghanistan and that was big enough to hold almost everything in his house.

 

[tangolima]

Is it only one person or more than one? Not that it matters, but just curious. Sometimes you referred it as "him" but most of the time "them".

I would remove all firearms from the house. Put them in a storage. Removing firing pins is the second best.

I understand not having a gun ready to go makes some of us jump. But a man got to do what a man got to do. When you decided to care for the person(s) you had made up your mind to take up the burden; to make sacrifice for his/their sake.

I could be wrong but most people get on with lives without guns. I didn't have any for at least half of my life. Now I have a small collection. But I would not mind parting with them if I have to. Hopefully your situation is temporary, and life will eventually resume normal.

I don't know everything about your situation. But what you are doing is admirable. I will remember you in my prayers.

-TL

 

[FAS1]

I guess when the concern is that someone might be suicidal that changes the handgun safe discussion a little more that the usual just trying to keep a child out.

I would look at the "Simplex" mechanical push-button safes for reliability and durability if you decide to get a quick access handgun safe. Also, these are usually made if thicker gauge steel so they should be harder for a determined person to gain access. Your kids won't damage one to try and gain access, but a suicidal person could probably care less.

Be sure and bolt it down to something solid so it can't be taken and opened with tools somewhere else.

We developed an optional key for ours to deadbolt the push-button lock for those that want to keep a HD gun in it all the time and want another layer of security. The backup key entry feature can easily be disabled if the customer wants. If you carried during the day, I would say to use that gun and take it with you when you leave.

Keep in mind that a large gun safe with a 12GA body won't deter a determined person for long. If you go this route for your other guns, try to put it in a location that the side and top are not exposed if possible and bolt it down as well. I would also consider removing the guns that you don't need there for self defense and storing them somewhere else.

From personal experience don't assume that they will not hurt themselves. My best friend was depressed for a few years and lived just two blocks away from his parents. They knew he was struggling and I did too, but never to the point that anyone thought he would hurt himself. A year ago his dad found him in his bedroom where he hung himself with a ski rope. He was an expert bare foot skier. When I found out, I immediately assumed he used his .44 Magnum because I felt he would make sure if he attempted something like this. On the other hand, I think that he didn't use a gun because he was very much a gun guy.

I guess my point of sharing is that if someone really wants to hurt themselves they will with or without a gun available. Just do what you can to help them get better. I wish I would have considered the possibility of my friend doing this and did more to help him even though he was one of the most positive people when out in public. Always helping people and never asking for any help, even when he needed it. Your family member is fortunate that they have someone like you trying to help them. God Bless!

 

[Dreaming100Straight]

Thanks again. This is a very bad time to deal with this, but there is never a good time and the person in question has to deal with it every day of their life. To make it all the more difficult the wife, who sees everything and everyone in the best possible light and I think is in denial when it comes to recognizing the seriousness of this person's issues, doesn't want me spending money on gun vaults and safes. I think I will find something an lie about the cost.What someone said about keeping a bat besides the bed reminded me of my grad school days in a so so area of Los Angeles. The area was far from the worse, but when I walked a half mile to a friends at night I carried a baseball bat. I lived next door to a drug half way house, but now its more like living in the "Leave It To Beaver" neighborhood.

 

[Pond James Pond]

I hope that those involved have accessed appropriate mental health resources.

I second this.

If someone is suffering depression to such a severe degree that self-harm/suicide is a real and present danger then they need professional care and supervision....

 

[MurBob]

Keep in mind that a large gun safe with a 12GA body won't deter a determined person for long.

The fact that they even sell those things as "Safes" is a joke when one considers it takes little more than human power and a tire iron to break into one.

A safe needs to be 9ga (absolute minimum) and have a 3/8" plate steel door before its going to stop a human powered tool. When I did my research on this, I found the only affordable manufacture of a decent safe was made by a company called "Sturdy Safe".. they are as ugly as a pile of doggy doo-doo but built with quality like a tank and reasonably priced.

Other manufacturers like Fort Knox make some higher end safes that are also high quality but they cost three to five times as much.

One should also consider that no residential safe of any quality is going to stop a standard ($40) 4-1/2 inch angle grinder with a Metabo slicer wheel and a ~20 minute window of time.

 

[motorhead0922]

Here's the V-line I have in the bedroom, bolted down:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1XQ94EFTS6RCTRNZPXDR

Here's the Sentry safe I have in the closet, cabled down:
http://www.amazon.com/Sentry-X105-E...F8&qid=1453231875&sr=1-7&keywords=sentry+safe

I think I like the Sentry the best.

I didn't like the beeping when I pressed the buttons on the Sentry, so I pulled the beeper off the circuit board with a pair of pliers. Works fine. The key is a good backup if the battery gets low. The original battery has lasted a long time.

 

[JimmyR]

OP, I think your attempts to secure your firearms are commendable, and I definitely think they are smart decisions, regardless of your houseguest's mental health needs.

That said, speaking from a 5 year career in acute psychiatric evaluation and treatment, from conducting intake interviews with person's with acute and chronic suicidal thoughts varying from vague thoughts to serious attempts. Firearms are often suggested as a possible means, but I very seldom see/hear of folks who are actually trying to use them. I see many times more people of all ages who are using OTC and prescription medications to overdose, kitchen knives to cut, or ropes to hang.

My personal reccomendation, if your friend currently has a mental health professional/s, is I would ask if they have a safety plan in place, and to share that with you. Discuss what their plan is, and what role you would be playing. If needed, a locking toolbox or cashbox can be used to secure kitchen knives or medications. A footlocker can secure gardening tools, ropes, etc. Communication with the person will make them feel like a contributer and more of an equal, rather than feeling like a burden, or worse, like a patient in an institutional setting. It also keeps the door open with you, so that in a crisis situation, your friend will be more likely to reach out rather than act out. Making someone a partner in their own treatment and safety planning is the best way to increase the liklihood of compliance and see the most improvement.

 

[MrWesson]

All guns except CCW locked up or removed.

CCW on my person at all times and slept with very nearby(under mattress).

If you like to remove your CCW when you get home I'd consider not carrying.

The reality of it is that if the depressed relative gets to the point of committing suicide then there's about 1,000 ways to do it.

Have they attempted suicide before?
Have they talked about suicide before?

I'm just saying because there's different types of depressed people. End it all types and people who are just numb to things(probably more). I wouldn't worry much about the latter. Just an opinion though I'm not qualified to guess.

I suffer from mild depression but have never thought about killing myself. Its just more of a feeling of pointlessness/insignificance/laziness sometimes.


Meds are needed in this case(and help no matter how mild).. Short of drugging them/committing get them on some medication as a requirement before moving in with you(if they aren't already on them).

Don't make them feel unique or different. 13% of people in this country are on anti-depressants(much more could benefit). In my circle of close friends much more than that(circle includes only people with college degree's and 4 doctors). 3 out of the 4 doctors are taking antidepressants.