Seating revolver bullets

BJung

New member
How deep do you Bullseye and PPC shooters seat your bullets?

I seat my bullets at the cannelure or to a factory round. But, I've heard it mentioned that there is a forcing cone. And, there is the overall length of the chamber. Do you seat your bullets so their flush to the cylinder or some distance from wherever this forcing cone is? Do you make test loads for seating depth?
 

44 AMP

Staff
Do you seat your bullets so their flush to the cylinder or some distance from wherever this forcing cone is? Do you make test loads for seating depth?

Seating bullets flush with the front of the cylinder is a bad idea and is just asking for problems.

From the questions you are asking, it appears you are lacking some basic information about how a revolver works and what some terms mean.

First, the forcing cone. This is the "beveled" area at the rear end of the barrel. The slight taper "forces" the bullet into alignment with the bore of the barrel as it enters.

Next is the cylinder, which contains the chamber (where the loaded cartridge physically fits) and a section ahead of the actual chamber which extends from the chamber to the front edge of the cylinder. This area is called the cylinder throat.

The throat is simply a smooth "pipe" the bullet moves through on its way to the barrel. However the fit of the bullet in the throat is an important thing for accuracy.

The next point you're missing is how the revolver acts on the rounds in the cylinder during recoil.

Unlike magazine fed repeaters, the revolver holds the cases by the rim and when the entire gun recoils the cases are pulled back with it. Inertia of the bullet tries to hold it in place, so the effect is that recoil pulls the case away from the bullet. This is called crimp jump or bullet creep. The effect is that the bullet seems to move forward in the case, and in extreme, out of the case entirely. This can result in the bullet sticking out the front of the cylinder, which jams the gun. That's why you don't seat bullets to the front edge of the cylinder.

We PREVENT that by using proper neck tension to hold the bullet AND a crimp. Usually a roll crimp into the cannelure or crimp groove of the bullet.

The proper depth to seat the bullet is so the case can be crimped into the middle of the crimp groove. This allows for very small variations and still yields a serviceable round.

The way to do this consistently is to trim all cases to the same uniform length then adjust your dies for that.

Do I make "test rounds" for seating depth? Not generally. When I change bullets I just use a careful trial and error method, starting with the seating stem backed off a bit, then moving it down in small steps seating the bullet deeper and deeper in stages, until it is seated to the proper depth for crimp, then I back the stem off a half inch or so, and adjust the die body to get the desired amount of crimp, then, once that is set, run the seating stem down to firm contact with the bullet and I'm ready to load, seating and crimping in one smooth, easy step.

Some folks will say there are advantages to seating and crimping in separate steps, and for some things there can be, I seat and crimp rifle rounds as separate steps, but I've been doing it in one step for revolver rounds since the 70s and if I do my part right setting it up, it works just fine.

Carefully read the "how to" sections of your loading manual. When you have questions (and, you will have questions) TFL is a good spot for answers. There's a lot of us here who have been doing this for a long time, and some of us even know what we're talking about! :D:rolleyes:
 

BJung

New member
I didn't think of the forces on the cartridge acting like a kinetic puller.

I disagree with you that the the bullet will slide out. The Lee Factory crimp die will fix that. But, having done a short search, other shooters have reported no noticeable difference in accuracy to OAL even between a .38 wc or .357 wc shot through the same .357 revolver. And so, testing is fruitless.

I apologize for not researching the terms of the handgun. I'll consider doing so next tine to avoid your wrath but thanks for the response. I've owned my revolver for decades but never studied it's mechanics and how to shoot it well
 

NoSecondBest

New member
BJung, I don’t think there was any “wrath” in the response you got. In fact, I think 44 AMP went above and beyond in taking the time to explain everything to you in a well laid out response. You asked a question and got a good, detailed response. I don’t think you’re “rebuttal” is called for. FWIW, under severe recoil a bullet can slide out even with a crimp on it. If the crimp isn’t sufficient the bullet can slide. Even a factory crimp die has adjustment and if not adjusted enough it won’t hold. You could be a little kinder to those who take the time to try and help you by answering your questions.
 

buck460XVR

New member
You seat revolver bullets with a cannelure so that your roll crimp is in the center of that cannelure. Period. Nuttin' else to worry about. If the bullet does not fit in your cylinder you are not using an appropriate bullet. Some heavy for caliber bullets have two cannelures to compensate for OAL.
 

jag2

New member
Simply follow the instructions that came with dies and don't over think it. The die will give you an adequate crimp in the cannelure so no extra steps are necessary and you don't need to worry about a couple of thousandths one way or the other.
 

Jim Watson

New member
I loaded a lot of Speer hollow base wadcutters for PPC.
I seated them flush with a roll crimp into the slightly reduced band at the "nose" of the bullet.
The "bevel base" wadcutter has a crimp groove, see below.

I have loaded a good number of semiwadcutter and roundnose bullets, roll crimped into the crimp groove. OAL is whatever crimping into the groove produces.

I have some ungrooved coated and plated bullets. They are seated to factory OAL and taper crimped.
 

44 AMP

Staff
I disagree with you that the the bullet will slide out. The Lee Factory crimp die will fix that. But, having done a short search, other shooters have reported no noticeable difference in accuracy to OAL even between a .38 wc or .357 wc shot through the same .357 revolver. And so, testing is fruitless.

One thing I did not clearly explain is that the recoil force pulling the case off the bullet varies with the load AND the gun it is fired in. I have personally tested this with uncrimped rounds and crimped rounds in different guns. Caliber, load level and weight of the gun make a difference.

.38 Special, 158gr @850fps uncrimped, fired from a S&W M28 6". 5 shots fired, sixth rnd checked for bullet movement. None found. 5 more rounds with the same last round in the cylinder. Again, no movement.

Same test done with a light weight gun (chief special) there was bullet movement. Not a lot but some. Test repeated with rounds lightly crimped, no bullet movement, either gun.

Larger calibers and heavier loads increase the bullet pull effect, as the bigger heavier bullets have more inertia. .45 Colt, 250gr no crimp, fired from Ruger Blackhawk, the last round had some bullet movement.

firm neck tension is enough to hold the bullet in place in SOME revolvers at some load levels, and NOT ENOUGH in other with higher load levels. Crimping, (done right) takes care of that. Crimping done wrong can undo the neck tension.

As to specific COL and accuracy in revolvers, its essentially a moot point. ALL your rounds are going to have to "jump" a considerable distance before meeting the rifling. Shorter length rounds do not show any detectable difference in accuracy because they are shorter, and indeed, in most cases the difference in length is made up before the bullet fully leaves the shorter case.

Specific to .38 Spl and .357, the difference in listed loaded max length is only 0.04" IN terms of how far the bullet has to go to get to the rifling, that is not a significant number in a revolver.

Bullets absolutely will "slide out" of the cases IF the recoil force is enough. If not, they won't. Light target wadcutter loads (and a heavy gun) usually won't, but could, so we crimp them anyway. Heavier loads and lighter guns need a crimp to be sure bullets will stay in place.

The Lee FCD does crimp does it not? I don't use one, don't even have one, never found a need for one, but they are called a crimp die, so I assume they crimp.

I've been handloading since the early 70s and load .38SPL, .357 Magnum, .44SPL, .44 Magnum, .45acp and .45 Colt for revolvers. What I do, works.
 

zeke

New member
It might help to specify the specific bullet, load and pistol you are using. Back when loading swaged lead wad cutters for target shooting, seated them flush and only insured the case mouth had no bell left. If memory serves there is/was a plated bullet manufacturer that did not have cannelures on some of their revolver bullets.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/category/preferred-plated-bullets/plated-pistol/38-357

Also pretty sure you may be able to increase accuracy with some bullet designs that start to engage the forcing cone or rifling while some of the bullet is till in the cylinder throat.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm
"Keith’s SWC had three equal width driving bands. A full-width, full-diameter forward driving band is a very important feature of the Keith SWC as that band is what aligns the bullet with the bore as it traverses the barrel/cylinder gap and what starts the engraving/rotation process"

If you're bullet has no cannelure, would be very careful with use of a LFC die. If you're bullet has a deep angular cannelure, might be better off with a profile crimp or the standard crimp on your seating die rather than LFC.
 
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tank1949

Moderator
I'd seat bullet by what mfg. suggests (maximum over all cartridge length) and then a little shorter. Most revolver bullets have a cannelure that helps you adjust seater accordingly. My revolver cartridge dies all have roll-crimps and I have discovered that I need a hard roll-crimp to keep bullets from unseating on magnum calibers.
 

BJung

New member
OK, I was curious to find any improved accuracy by extending a revolver bullet farther. I've always crimped my bullets at the cannelure because I would be a standard measurement and it looked nice. I'll just seat my bullets as I've always have.
 

44 AMP

Staff
Seating bullets out further (chasing the lands) is something that sometimes works with rifles, and extensively used by match/benchrest shooters and talked about a lot.

However, its is of no use and not even possible with revolvers. You cannot get the bullet closer to the rifling than the front end of the cylinder, so there's the cylinder gap that cannot be overcome, PLUS if your bullets are all the way out there, if there is any forward movement due to recoil, you tie up the gun. AND, when your bullets are seated all the way out to the end of the cylinder, they are not being gripped by the case (both neck tension and crimp) the way they were designed to be, and that alone can cause issues.

Revolvers are what they are, and work the way they do, and are different in many details from all other repeating firearms. There is a learning curve to them, and while not terribly steep or difficult, it is there.

Lots of things that work with semi autos don't work with revolvers some simply don't apply at all. Seating close to the lands may shrink groups in your rifle or even some pistols but simply cannot be done with a revolver. For one example.

A simple thing often shown but without good explanation is the importance of pointing the revolver muzzle UP when ejecting fired cases and down when loading live rounds. The reason is to reduce the possibility of crud getting into the action (especially under the extractor star) when emptying and for gravity to assist when loading.

You might think of revolver mechanisms being fitted like a mechanical watch while semi auto parts are fitted more like LEGOs, that just snap together. This is, of course, an over simplified comparison, but I think it has some validity.
 

rc

New member
Use your crimp groove and put a good crimp on each round. Having uniform cases is more important with revolver than auto pistol rounds.
 

BJung

New member
rc, do you crimp the same time you seat your bullet or do you get better accuracy crimping as a separate step? Do you experiment accuracy by crimp. An example would be a set of 6 loads with a 1/4 turn of the die clockwise vs 6 loads with 1/2 turn to increase the crimp? I have only crimped enough until it was noticeably in the groove?
 

USSR

New member
BJung,

You're over thinking this. Just put a moderate crimp in the crimp groove and play around with some different powders.

Don
 

WESHOOT2

New member
Crimp does not secure the bullet; case neck tension secures the bullet, and in revolver cartridge firing, crimp aids tension, further securing the bullet.

For best accuracy, crimp separately using the superior Redding Profile Crimp die.
Tested: more uniform velocity, enhanced accuracy.
 
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