School Me On The Smith & Wesson 1917

[Joe_Pike]

I have no experience with these other than seeing a picture here and there as they just don't turn up where I live.

A guy at work bought one this weekend (or what I believe to be one) at an auction and was trying to make sure that it is what I think it is. He thinks it was originally chambered in .455 Webley because on the barrel you can see ".45" but nothing after it except a lot of wear. He has an idea that someone may have removed the "5 Webley" after the ".45". I'm not so sure. A .45 Colt cartridge seems to chamber just fine. The .45 acp slips on through without moon clips, which there were none with the gun. My question is whether there were .45 Colt versions of this and should there be a rim for the .45 acp to rest on or is it totally dependent on moon clips. Serial number is 49xxx.

 

[James K]

A military contract S&W Model 1917 (as originally made) will have plain wood stocks, without checkering. The left side of the barrel will be marked "S.&W. D.A. 45". The bottom of the barrel ahead of the bottom lug will be marked "UNITED STATES PROPERTY". The marking "U.S. ARMY/MODEL 1917/No. xxxxx" (where xxxxx is the serial number) will appear on the bottom of the grip. The serial will also appear on the barrel under the ejector rod and on the back of the cylinder. Unless the gun was later re-finished, it will be blued, not Parkerized.

The gap between the cylinder and the breech will be about .011", enough for a .45 ACP rim and the half-moon clip. There will be shoulders in the chambers; a .45 Colt will not fully enter the chamber and would have excess headspace if it did. A .455 will enter the chamber, but if it fires will also have excess headspace.

HTH

Jim

 

[Joe_Pike]

What about non-military models? And , the grips definately are not original.

 

[James K]

Commercial revolvers were also made for the .45 ACP with half moon clips. They were/are used by target shooters in .45 matches, as distinguished from service pistol matches, where only the M1911/A1 (and now the M9)could be used.

While some of those revolvers were called "Model 1917" by their makers, they were not military contract and did not have the USP legend or military model number on them. Since the military contract guns are most common, I responded with that information. I will be happy to provide further information if you can provide a more complete description of the gun and/or good pictures.

Jim

 

[Joe_Pike]

I'll look it over more closely tomorrow.

 

[Webleymkv]

Look to see if the chambers are slightly recessed as this could be a giveaway that the gun was originally chambered in .455 Webley and later rechambered to .45 Long Colt. .455 Webley cartridge have a very thin rim and, as such, rechambering a .455 gun to .45 LC requires both that the chamber be reamed deeper and that some material be removed from the cylinder face to accommodate the thicker .45 LC rim. On the only such specimen I've handled (obviously modified later because the barrel was shortened, a different front sight fitted, lanyard ring removed, and the gun refinished in nickel) the chambers were slightly counterbored to allow the .45 LC cartridges to sit deeper in them and thus prevent the case heads from binding against the recoil shield. This particular modification looked similar to the recessed chambers found on pre-1982 S&W magnum revolvers but the cartridges did not sit completely flush with the cylinder face as factory recessed chambers do.

 

[RickB]

Sounds like a Hand Ejector Mk. II (.455) that has had the cylinder rechambered to .45 Colt.
I think all S&W M1917s had a headspacing shoulder in each chamber, so that the gun could be shot without moonclips.
I have such a HE Mk. II, but mine was modified with a M1917 cylinder to shoot .45 ACP. The barrels were originally 6.5" long, so if the barrel hasn't been shortened, it would be obviously longer than the 5.5" barrel of a M1917.
The barrel markings on mine show ".45X AR", to signify that the original .455 has been changed to .45 Auto Rim.
S&W did not make many .45 Colt revolvers of any kind until the 1980s, so there's an outside chance that the gun could be original, but I'd place my bets on a modified HE Mk. II.

 

[Joe_Pike]

Okay, it's obviously not a 1917. The barrel length is 6 1/2" and there is nothing on the underside of the barrel except the serial number (49xxx). The right side of the barrel is marked "Smith & Wesson 45" and then it looks like the rest has been shaved off or worn off. Right side of frame has "BV" proof mark with a crown. Chambers are not recessed. Has a lanyard.

The .45 acp will slip all of the way through the cylinder, so, no shoulder. A .45 Colt cartridge will chamber and allow the cylinder to close with the case under the firing pin.

 

[RickB]

All the way through and out the front?
The chamber throats should be in the .45"-.46" range, while a .45 ACP rim should be a minimum of .470" and max of .480"; that cylinder has been modified for something, but it appears to not be a well-known handgun cartridge!

 

[James K]

When .455 revolvers (of any make) were re-chambered for .45 Colt, most gunsmiths didn't have a reamer and didn't bother about the cylinder throat, they just drilled them straight through with a 15/32 twist drill. And without a reamer, they couldn't countersink for the thicker .45 Colt rim, so they faced a bit off the cylinder to get proper headspace.

Jim

 

[Joe_Pike]

All the way through and out the front?

Yep, all the way.

I did notice the cylinder walls looked kind of rough, and thin.

And, thanks for all of the answers.

 

[Webleymkv]

Right side of frame has "BV" proof mark with a crown.

I'm almost certain it's a rechambered .455 because "BV" with a crown is a British proof mark (I wouldn't be surprised if there is a "NP" marking on it somewhere too).

 

[RickB]

Usually, accuracy is best when bullets are sized to the cylinder throats, but good luck finding suitable .475" pistol bullets(?)!

 

[James K]

Accuracy won't be helped in any case when oversize bullets are swaged down by the forcing cone. The reason is that that swaging can be uneven and with lead bullets can leave the bullet base uneven, a greater harm to accuracy than the bullet diameter.

Note that the presence of British proof marks means only that a gun was placed on the market in the UK at some time; it does not indicate British government ownership or say anything about the caliber.

Jim

 

[RickB]

If it is/was a .455, it will have a .457" groove dimension.
I've shot G.I. hardball through my "converted" gun, and the .451"-.452" bullets must fairly rattle down the barrel.
When I switched to .454" lead bullets, groups shrank to minute-of-paper-plate at ten yards. I don't think the ACP cylinder will allow bullets much, if any larger than that to chamber.