Scenario #4

[Hansen]

I use this one also, for the ones that like to play "Cop" CCW....

Scenario # 4


A man was shopping at an indoor enclosed shopping mall. While looking at merchandise in one of the stores, he heard several gun shots and a lot of screaming and panic coming from the main corridor directly outside the store. He immediately ran to the front of the store and saw a man with a gun chasing another man though the mall. Both men were running his way. The man drew his weapon and aimed it at the man with the gun and shouted “STOP”. The man with the gun spun around and looked at the man. When he saw the man with the gun spin around in his direction he became in fear of his life and fired 2 rounds at the man with the gun. One of 2 rounds fatally struck the man with the gun in the head, killing him instantly. The man being chased continued to run and disappeared into the mall parking lot. After a short investigation, it was later learned that the man with the gun was actually an off-duty officer who had witnessed a jewelry store robbery and was in pursuit of 1 of 2 robbery suspects.







1. What if anything would you have done differently?


2. Was deadly force justified in this incident?


3. Could this have been prevented?

 

[newarcher]

I hate to be redundant, but the man in your scenarios keeps interjecting himself into situations he should not and keeps getting innocent people killed. There is a theme here!

I am not being mean, but it seems a lot of your scenarios seem to have a saviour theme to them which may or may not mirror your beliefs. If so, I would get some training and change my approach to CCW.

My response: hand on gun, follow the people, get out alive, live to be a witness.

The cop should have been yelling POLICE or something....but in your scenario the shooter goes to jail for a long long time.

New

 

[The Biker]

I ain't shooting until if, as and when, I know for damn *sure* that my target deserves a bullet. Who's chasing who? A father trying to catch his daughter's kidnapper?
If don't know, my weapon is gonna stay cool to the touch.
Being a hero is highly overrated and on the surface can be fatally deceiving.

Biker

 

[don_hamer]

Once again I agree with newarcher.

 

[Prophet]

hmmm Your not a forum troll are you because all of your senerios thus far have been of hot headed or dumb CCWers. Are you trying to compile data for your anti-gun rally? Or just really wondering what others would do.


EDIT: Also this one doesn't add up. A undercover or plain clothes cop wouldn't be firing his weapon in a crowded shopping mall at a person that just sold some jewelry especialy if the perp is unarmed.

 

[BillCA]

"You see, but you do not observe, Watson."
--Sherlock Holmes

My first reaction would have been to "see what's going on" as did the man in your scenario. If I see someone shooting at random people, I'm going to try to get everyone into the back room or out the back exit. I may even play "rear guard" in the event he enters the store while we're evacuating.

But seeing subject #1 being chased by armed subject #2, there is room for doubt. No shots are being fired during the pursuit (towards others) so I standby and observe. It could be a CCW'er chasing someone who tried to rob him, a plainclothes cop chasing a suspect or some other situation in which I don't need to be involved.

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

Can you clean up this one a little? I got lost in all of the references to "the man"...."the man drew his gun on the man...." Thanks!

 

[Doug.38PR]

Be sure you know who and what your target is. In other words, look before you leap.
If you are sure and know the guy is a armed deadly threat (and not a good cop chasing a thug) to you and others yes deadly force would be justified.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Obviously, evolution is not true as natural selection and survival of the fittest would have not produced these actors. They must have been created in the image of some omniscient deity.

Now, I have actually seen in several FOFs, the bystander intervene by shooting up the wrong guy. It was a lesson for them.

 

[easyG]

If you don't know the players then stay out of the game.

 

[Mantua]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0002/04/bp.00.html

It's already happened. Black officer in a crappy neighborhood (Fida's, on Atwells ave), in street clothes.

 

[jfrey123]

Headline for this case reads, "Local citizen with CCW ends up as Bubba's playmate in the pen."


Bad move. Get yerself out of danger.

 

[stephen426]

A police officer should not be unleashing rounds in crowded areas. If there is someone shooting at people randomly, I would get involved. This is a highly plausible situation and I believe that it has happened before. If I am able to stop a madman (or terrorist) from killing others, I would.

Now if you are talking about someone pusuing another and not firing wildly at them, I would not get involved. Even if the person was firing at someone he was chasing, I might not get involved. I am not about to insert myself in between someone elses gang war or what have you. Call it selfish or what you will, but unless that person is shooting at people non-discriminatly, I'm not getting involved.

 

[sm]

<shiver>
Denny, you hit a bit close to a nerve with me on this one.


One is wise to take cover, assist others in taking cover, observe and report.
Communication is important not only with Police doing their job, also with other folks be they shopkeepers, employees, or shoppers.


~~
No, I did pull a stupid on the incidents that cause this to make me shiver.

I jumped over the counter, got my GF and her boss down, and then I crawled to get a peek, and able to observe and report what I saw.
GF yanked the phone down off the counter, called store security.
The officer in chase was fired upon, and he fired back, as he was in fear of his life, and those of others in mall parking lot.

BGs got away. They actually got a flat from this shooting, and they honestly were assisted by Police in changing this flat.

Short time passes...
BGs are back in the Mall, and Mall Alert plan in action.
Word is, where I worked is the place to be hit.

I did my best BS and got all the ladies in the backroom, we had a back door.
This left 3 men, 2 up front, and me, at the back counter where the safe was, where the BGs would come.

Communicating as I did with Police, with Code words, meant when the Sheriff himself, knocked on back door with another Deputy in the area, I let them in, both had shotguns.
Two other City officers, escorted ladies , in marked units to safety.

This was just after dark, we were open until 9 pm.

That was the night I tossed money and real mdse into 3 trash cans.
I left the fake mdse, and "play money" in the safe.

I know what a Prostitute feels like in church
Gets a bit hot , sweaty and all during stuff like this.

We did not get hit, we came real darn close.
BG #1 came in and I " handled it".
I had the County Sheriff no more than 5 feet to my right behind one doorand one Deputy no more than 10 feet at the left behind the other door - with Police shotguns.

I was told to handle best can, if matters went south, to drop like a rock.

Oh, the front of the area I was in, steel plates about a 4 ft off the floor, I had cover...when and if I dropped.

Denny won't reveal what he knows of me.

Yes, I have some "lessons" in these kinds of matters.
[I don't feel correct using the term "training"]

"If you see the person at the counter that night in the line-up, please tell us his number, take your time, and remember, they cannot see you". - officer later asked me.

No. 1 sir. Number 1 is the person I saw at the counter that night.

Same fellow was number 2 on the line-up for the earlier time, where I jumped over the counter where my GF worked in the same mall.


<shiver>


Steve

 

[DesertDawg]

This scenario is one that has been choreographed and filmed for using in the "F.A.T.S." (Firearms And Tactics Simulator) training system. Basically, it spells out the meaning of the slogan, "You can't judge a book by its cover".