SBR ?

[Fox84]

I have 3 AR pistols with sig arm braces. I want to go to SBR's

Can I build a SBR lower, engrave it and use it with all of my short barrel uppers legaly?

I have a trust and $200 wouldn't be bad for a couple of rifles.

 

[rjrivero]

Yep

 

[Fox84]

That's good news! I just received my stamp for my can. 4 Months and 3 weeks.

 

[Sharkbite]

To elaborate on the "yep"....

You can file a form 1 on any or all of your lowers. Once approved, install a real stock on that lower and use ANY length upper you want.

It is legal to install a Rifle length upper if you want to and then go back to the SBR length at will

I do not think its possible to turn that lower back into a pistol. I think the "once a Rifle (even a SBR) always a rifle" would come into play. For that reason i keep a cpl pistol lowers around, even though i have a number of SBR's.

An additional benifit is that in order to travel out of your state with an SBR, you need BATFE's permission. Slap that short upper onto a Pistol lower and you are free to travel at will anywhere that pistol is legal.

 

[OcSpeed]

Sharkbite, fyi. Started life as a pistol can always go back to a pistol.
It's ATF Ruling 2011-4

 

[dakota.potts]

That's an interesting question, because the SBR is a rifle or a weapon made from a rifle by its very nature. You're also crossing classes of firearms from Title I to Title II by going from Pistol to rifle.

So I have to wonder if ATF doesn't see it as creating an entirely new firearm as opposed to legally re-classifying one that you already have. If that's the case, although you could get the firearm removed from the registry, I don't know if it could go back to a pistol or if it would have to become a rifle.

I'd be interested if anybody has more information on this, even though it's not relevant to me right now.

 

[TMD]

Once you have a sbr lower (I have two) why in the world would you want to convert it back to a pistol? It's not any shorter if that's what your thinking.

 

[OcSpeed]

I'd want to convert it back because you don't need ATF's permission to cross state lines with a pistol.

 

[Sharkbite]

The form 1 makes it a Rifle, although a short barreled on. It has now been manufactured as a rifle. I dont think you can then convert that Rifle into a Pistol.

I dont know of an actuall ruling on this point, but it stands to reason that a pistol just converted into a rifle is good to go based on the rulling above. Once that firearm is registered as a rifle, how do you go back to a pistol.

Once an AR lower is papered as a rifle its a rifle forever.

 

[Theohazard]

Once you have a sbr lower (I have two) why in the world would you want to convert it back to a pistol? It's not any shorter if that's what your thinking.

There are three main advantages of an AR pistol over an SBR: First, you can take it across state lines without filing a Form 20. Second, you can take it to states where SBRs aren't legal. Third, in some states you can't have a loaded rifle in your vehicle, but you can have a loaded pistol (here in WA you can't have a loaded SBR in your vehicle, but with a CPL you can have a loaded AR pistol in your vehicle, so some people prefer AR pistols over SBRs for that reason).

 

[Theohazard]

That's an interesting question, because the SBR is a rifle or a weapon made from a rifle by its very nature. You're also crossing classes of firearms from Title I to Title II by going from Pistol to rifle.

So I have to wonder if ATF doesn't see it as creating an entirely new firearm as opposed to legally re-classifying one that you already have. If that's the case, although you could get the firearm removed from the registry, I don't know if it could go back to a pistol or if it would have to become a rifle.

I'd be interested if anybody has more information on this, even though it's not relevant to me right now.

I don't know whether you can go from an SBR to a pistol if the lower started off as a pistol, but I know the "crossing classes of firearms" argument isn't a good one: If you have a Title II SBR with the lower as the registered part and then you put a 16" upper on that SBR lower, the ATF now considers it a Title I rifle as long as it's in that configuration.

 

[Theohazard]

Once an AR lower is papered as a rifle its a rifle forever.

I assume you're referring to an AR lower being sold as part of a complete rifle, which would be marked as a "long gun" and a "rifle" on the 4473. But I just wanted to clarify to everyone else reading this that an AR lower (stripped or fully built) is only sold as an "other" and a "receiver" on the 4473; there's no such thing as a "pistol" or "rifle" lower receiver as far as the ATF is concerned.

So any lower receiver you buy can be made into either a pistol or a rifle per federal law. Technically, if you build a lower into a rifle first, you can't build it into a pistol. But if you first built it into a pistol, you can then go back and forth between a pistol or rifle configuration. But I don't see how the ATF could ever know which configuration you built your lower into first, so that seems completely unenforceable to me. (I'm definitely NOT recommending that anyone break the law, but I'm just pointing out how unenforceable that law is.)

To get back to the subject of building an SBR lower back into a pistol, I'm sure you can put pistol parts on it, but I don't know if that changes its official designation to a pistol or if it stays an SBR. I do know that you can make a Title II SBR into a Title I rifle by putting a 16" barrel on it, so I wouldn't be surprised if you could make it back into a pistol if it started that way.

 

[dogtown tom]

dakota.potts That's an interesting question, because the SBR is a rifle or a weapon made from a rifle by its very nature.

Not necessarily.
Put a shoulder stock on a Glock, Browning Hi Power, 1911 or any other pistol and you have made an SBR. (and the SBR was never a rifle).
Decide you don't like it? Sell the shoulder stock and notify ATF NFA Branch that the firearm is no longer in SBR configuration. They can remove it from the NFA registry.

Sharkbite ....Once an AR lower is papered as a rifle its a rifle forever.

100% wrong.
A frame, receiver or AR lower (even a complete lower with shoulder stock) is exactly that.....a frame, receiver or lower. It is not a handgun or long gun until completed. It will be transferred on the Form 4473 as an "Other Firearm".

It cannot be a rifle until both shoulder stock and a rifled barrel are attached. If built as a pistol first, it can be configured into a rifle and later back into a pistol.

The old "Once a rifle, always a rifle" mantra was ruled moot thanks to Thompson Center in 1992. It took ATF nineteen years to finally issue a ruling.
The new mantra is "First a rifle always a rifle and first a pistol, can return to a pistol".

 

[Sharkbite]

The problem with all the above statements. Is that by doing a form 1 you are making a RIFLE. That Glock pistol once you do a form 1 and it is approved, it is now a short barreled RIFLE.

That gun is legally a rifle at that point. Not a bare receiver. Not a pistol. But a RIFLE and registered as such.

 

[rjrivero]

The problem with all the above statements. Is that by doing a form 1 you are making a RIFLE. That Glock pistol once you do a form 1 and it is approved, it is now a short barreled RIFLE.



That gun is legally a rifle at that point. Not a bare receiver. Not a pistol. But a RIFLE and registered as such.

It's not a problem at all. ATF Ruling 2011-4 says if you take a pistol and make it into a legal rifle you can make it a pistol again without worry. If you make your pistol into a registered SBR, it's still a "legal rifle." Nothing prevents you from turning it back into a pistol.

Here's the part you you're gonna have a fit with:

If you turn it back into a pistol, you follow all the rules as if it's a pistol. So you can cross state lines with it, without a 5320.20

You're stuck believing that old mantra "once a rule, always a rifle" and I'm not sure we're going to convince you that is not true anymore. If it starts as a pistol you can change the configuration as you wish, provided you have the right paperwork.

Just because it's in the NFA registry as an SBR doesn't mean it has to stay in the SBR configuration.

 

[Sharkbite]

If i take a pistol (lets say an AR) and put a 16" upper and a stock on it. Now i sell that gun in that conifig, it goes thru a dealer and the 4473 lists that gun as a "Rifle"....it is NOW a rifle. It can not be made into a pistol again.

By doing a form 1 you have in fact registered that lower as a RIFLE. As such it does not meet the requirements of the T/C ruling.

A gun that has ever been PAPERED as a rifle cannot be turned into a pistol.

Sorry, im not trying to argue but you are not talking about the same thing. A pistol that has a rifle length barrel and stock added never changes classification. Once that gun is registered as a Rifle. Its a rifle.

 

[rjrivero]

If i take a pistol (lets say an AR) and put a 16" upper and a stock on it. Now i sell that gun in that conifig, it goes thru a dealer and the 4473 lists that gun as a "Rifle"....it is NOW a rifle. It can not be made into a pistol again.

By doing a form 1 you have in fact registered that lower as a RIFLE. As such it does not meet the requirements of the T/C ruling.

A gun that has ever been PAPERED as a rifle cannot be turned into a pistol.

Sorry, im not trying to argue but you are not talking about the same thing. A pistol that has a rifle length barrel and stock added never changes classification. Once that gun is registered as a Rifle. Its a rifle.

*sigh* Not true. If you have a pistol that you put a 16" barreled upper on it and stock on it and sell it, through a dealer and the dealer lists it as a "rifle" on a 4473 that dealer is wrong. That form is wrong. That doesn't make that pistol a "rifle forever."

(I do concede that a firearm that is on a 4473 as "rifle" would be hard to argue that it started life as a pistol or as a receiver. However, it may not be impossible to do so.)

The original manufacturer of that pistol makes the determination if it is manufactured as a pistol, rifle or "other" (Meaning lower receiver).
So once that firearm leaves the shop, that serial number is recorded. If that receiver leaves the shop as a pistol, then it's "originally a pistol" if it leaves as a rifle, then it's "originally a rifle" if it leaves as a SBR, then it's "orginally a Short Barrel Rifle."

If it leaves the mfg as a pistol or lower receiver, and I want to change that configuration (which I'm legitimately legal to do) then it becomes whatever that configuration is. So if I take an AR pistol, and put a 16" barrel and stock on it, then it's a rifle. I can always make it a pistol again if I choose. The key is that it has to start life as a "pistol." (or a stripped receiver built into a pistol first.)

If I choose to make it an NFA registered SBR, I can do that. I can at any time remove that firearm from that registry. When I do, I can make it back into a pistol again. A "Legal Rifle" wether that's a REGISTERED SBR or a 16" Rifle not on any regsitry, doesn't matter.

You are stating that once you put it on the registry it's forever stuck in that configuration. It's not. You can remove a firearm from that regstiry at any time. Once removed from the registry, you can make it a pistol again if you wish, as long as it started out as a pistol. (Again according to ATF Ruling 2011-4)

 

[Sharkbite]

Brother, thanks for taking the time to type that all out...

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Since there is no actual BATFE dertimination on this exact issue its all conjecture anyway.

Cheers...

 

[dogtown tom]

Sharkbite .....Since there is no actual BATFE dertimination on this exact issue its all conjecture anyway.

If you had bothered to read the ATF Ruling 2011-4 mentioned in the fifth post you would know its not conjecture.
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington, DC 20226
26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM )
26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM)
26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)

A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.


ATF Rul. 2011-4
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use, through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol configuration by removal of those components. Specifically, ATF has been asked to determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle, becomes a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA).
Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length.

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Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more.

The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act’s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term “firearm” at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”). The term “rifle” is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.” Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)” (emphasis added).


Unassembled Parts Kits
In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was “made” under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot “Contender” pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA.

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a

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complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.


Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits
The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled “rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of “firearm” in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made.

Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a “weapon made from a rifle” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a “pistol” because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.

Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including –
(1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and


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(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.
Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
Date approved: July 25, 2011
Kenneth E. Melson
Acting Director

 

[dogtown tom]

rjrivero *sigh* Not true. If you have a pistol that you put a 16" barreled upper on it and stock on it and sell it, through a dealer and the dealer lists it as a "rifle" on a 4473 that dealer is wrong. That form is wrong. That doesn't make that pistol a "rifle forever."

Wrong.
The dealer MUST record the firearm in the configuration as he receives it. That doesn't change the fact that it may have been a pistol prior to being transferred to that dealer and does not change the applicability of ATF Ruling 2011-4.

The original manufacturer of that pistol makes the determination if it is manufactured as a pistol, rifle or "other" (Meaning lower receiver).

Nope........ATF regulations determine if it's a handgun/long gun/other. In seven years/12K firearms I've yet to receive a firearm with a note from the manufacturer telling me what it is in front of me.

So once that firearm leaves the shop, that serial number is recorded. If that receiver leaves the shop as a pistol, then it's "originally a pistol" if it leaves as a rifle, then it's "originally a rifle" if it leaves as a SBR, then it's "orginally a Short Barrel Rifle."

Nope.
Receivers/frames/lowers are receivers/frames/lowers.......period. There is no such animal as a "pistol receiver" or "rifle receiver" or "pistol lower" or "rifle lower". Until the firearm receiver is completely built as a pistol or rifle....its still just a receiver. Even if the receiver can only be built into a rifle or only into a handgun.........its still just a frame or receiver. And transferred as an Other Firearm on the Form 4473.

If it leaves the mfg as a pistol or lower receiver, and I want to change that configuration (which I'm legitimately legal to do) then it becomes whatever that configuration is. So if I take an AR pistol, and put a 16" barrel and stock on it, then it's a rifle. I can always make it a pistol again if I choose. The key is that it has to start life as a "pistol." (or a stripped receiver built into a pistol first.)

Correct.

If I choose to make it an NFA registered SBR, I can do that. I can at any time remove that firearm from that registry. When I do, I can make it back into a pistol again. A "Legal Rifle" wether that's a REGISTERED SBR or a 16" Rifle not on any regsitry, doesn't matter.

Correct.

You are stating that once you put it on the registry it's forever stuck in that configuration. It's not. You can remove a firearm from that regstiry at any time. Once removed from the registry, you can make it a pistol again if you wish, as long as it started out as a pistol. (Again according to ATF Ruling 2011-4)

Correct.